Monday, September 14, 2009

We will never forget!

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50 comments:

  1. thankgodimatheistSeptember 14, 2009 at 6:37 PM

    <span>"Journalist Robert Fisk returns to the Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon. Fisk recounts how Lebanese Christian militias who were under the control of the Israeli military murdered over 2000 Palestinians in the camps. Fisk also points to a building in the distance from where he insists the Israeli forces could witness the massacre. The Israeli government's own Kahan Commission found that future Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was personally responsible for the massacre. This is from a documentary Fisk made about "why so many Muslims have come to hate the West." But we know the real reason is because they hate our freedom, right?"</span>
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pWwkVfbY10

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  2. vzaSeptember 14, 2009 at 7:49 PM

    Truly horrific and there is no excuse on this earth for allowing that to happen.

    But I do have a question. Why is it that Sabra and Shatilla is constantly invoked and commemorated but the massace at Hama, Syria where far more people were slaughtered just as brutally, is basically ignored and does not engender the same reaction? Didn't they occur in the same year? In Hama, which had a strong Muslim brotherhood presence, there were also thousands of innocent people who had nothing to do with the radicals. And yet those people were mercilesly massacred and paved over. There was a barely a peep from the Arab world about this.

    Also, Fisk's comment:
    <span><span>"why so many Muslims have come to hate the West"</span></span>

    With the same reasoning, then perhaps it is also understandable, because of the many massacres the Christians endured at the hands of Muslims, for Christians to have sought revenge?  Then we can look at the massacres of Jews by both Christians and Muslims and we could understand perhaps their actions? Even a cursory look at history will provide us all with reasons for all sorts of reciprocal hatreds.
    <span><span>
    </span></span>

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  3. vzaSeptember 14, 2009 at 7:50 PM

    <span>Truly horrific and there is no excuse on this earth for allowing that to happen.  
     
    But I do have a question. Why is it that Sabra and Shatilla are constantly invoked and commemorated but the massace at Hama, Syria where far more people were slaughtered just as brutally, is basically ignored and does not engender the same reaction? Didn't they occur in the same year? In Hama, which had a strong Muslim brotherhood presence, there were also thousands of innocent people who had nothing to do with the radicals. And yet those people were mercilesly massacred and paved over. There was a barely a peep from the Arab world about this.  
     
    Also, Fisk's comment:  
    <span><span>"why so many Muslims have come to hate the West"</span></span>  
     
    With the same reasoning, then perhaps it is also understandable, because of the many massacres the Christians endured at the hands of Muslims, for Christians to have sought revenge?  Then we can look at the massacres of Jews by both Christians and Muslims and we could understand perhaps their actions? Even a cursory look at history will provide us all with reasons for all sorts of reciprocal hatreds. 
    </span>

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  4. vzaSeptember 14, 2009 at 8:31 PM

    I want to make it clear, I am not asking why Palestinians commemorate Sabra & Shatilla.

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  5. r.s.September 14, 2009 at 9:33 PM

    "I am not asking why Palestinians commemorate Sabra & Shatilla."

    Yes you are.

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  6. vzaSeptember 14, 2009 at 9:41 PM

    You would like to believe that because you cannot provide an answer.

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  7. r.s.September 15, 2009 at 4:41 AM

    It is simply not possible to provide the right answer to a question based on a false premise.

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  8. GuestSeptember 15, 2009 at 5:24 AM

    Arabs murder Arabs. Blame everyone else.

    Happened then. Happens now.

    How sick.

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  9. r.s.September 15, 2009 at 5:55 AM

    <span><span><span style="color: #3a3a3a;"><span style="color: #476cb8;"><span style="cursor: pointer;">Guest</span><img src="http://js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png"/></span> <span>Arabs murder Arabs. Blame everyone else. 
     
    Happened then. Happens now. 
     
    How sick.</span></span></span></span>
    <span><span><span style="color: #3a3a3a;"></span></span></span>
    <span><span><span style="color: #3a3a3a;"><span>__________________________________________________</span></span></span></span>
    <span><span></span></span>
    <span><span><span style="color: #3a3a3a;">Lebanese militia - paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally - hacking and raping and mudering their way through unarmed refugee camps under Israeli occupation. How sick indeed.  </span></span></span>
    <div class="js-kit-miniProfile-name"><span></span></div>
    <div class="js-kit-miniProfile-name"><span></span></div>

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  10. r.s.September 15, 2009 at 6:04 AM

    Guest Arabs murder Arabs. Blame everyone else.

    Happened then. Happens now.

    How sick

    ________________________________

    Lebanese militia - paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally - hacking and raping and murdering their way through unarmed refugee camps under Israeli occupation. How sick indeed.

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  11. Jemmy HopeSeptember 15, 2009 at 6:09 AM

    YOU mentioned Hama, vza. You see it's not forgotten.
    It's reads to me that you think it's OK for Palestinians to remember Sabra-Shatila, but not the rest of us. Well I feel it's up to me and mine to remember that the perpetrators were clients of the rogue state Israel, and allies of the US and other western nations.
    While I'm not attempting to justify the Hama massacre I think it worth recalling that that massacre was preceded by a massacre of Alawite army cadets by carried out by the Ikhwan at Hama.
    "Arabs kill Arabs", and Americans kill Americans - remember Oklahoma? 

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  12. vzaSeptember 15, 2009 at 7:01 AM

    <span>It's reads to me that you think it's OK for Palestinians to remember Sabra-Shatila, but not the rest of us. </span>

    I don't know where you would get that idea. It has nothing to do with the rest of us. My question has to do with how it is perceived in Arab countries. These massacres happened in the same YEAR! Thousands upon thousands were murdred in Hama. It is mystifying to me that it caused so little stir in the Arab countries. It is very strange.
    I am aware of what preceded the massacre and I know there are Syrians who think Assad had to take the brutal line that he did, but jeez, have you read the accounts of what happened there?

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  13. r.s.September 15, 2009 at 8:41 AM

    The real cause of Hama was the Tal Zaatar massacre of Palestinians sponsored by Hafez al Asad's Syria in 1976 which resulted in severe criticism of Syria throughout the Arab world and caused mounting dissent within Syria, that later broke out in open revolt.

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  14. r.s.September 15, 2009 at 9:21 AM

    Sensing a threat to his dictatorship, Hafez al Asad sold the Palestinians to Israel and crushed the progressive forces grouped in Lebanon. In 1982, the Syrian army refrained from defending Palestinian infrastructure against Israeli assault.

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  15. vzaSeptember 15, 2009 at 9:23 AM

    Thanks, I just finished reading up on it. Good lord, one awful massacre after another. Nobody's hands are clean, are they?

    It sure seems like this set the stage for all that was to come later in Lebanon:


    Due to major Arab political pressure, the Cairo AgreementGamal Abdel Nasser in 1969, the Lebanese were forced to allow a foreign force (the PLO) to conduct military operations against Israelrefugee camps, but soon much of southern Lebanon fell under their effective rule and rarely was the accord abided by. As fighters poured in from Jordan after the Black September destruction of the PLO's apparatus there, the PLO's presence became overbearing to many of inhabitants of these areas. The radical factions operated as a law unto themselves, and quickly alienated conservative Shi'a villagers. Much the same way that the PLO had lost its welcome in Jordan, Muslim support for the Palestinians began to erode in Lebanon. brokered by Egyptian President from inside their own territory. Although initially very reluctant to sign, the Lebanese government saw this accord as its last hope of regaining control of the country whereby it was agreed that attacks would be carried out in co-ordination with the Lebanese army. The PLO were granted full control over the refugee camps, but soon much of southern Lebanon fell under their effective rule and rarely was the accord abided by. As fighters poured in from Jordan after the Black September destruction of the PLO's apparatus there, the PLO's presence became overbearing to many of inhabitants of these areas. The radical factions operated as a law unto themselves, and quickly alienated conservative Shi'a villagers. Much the same way that the PLO had lost its welcome in Jordan, Muslim support for the Palestinians began to erode in Lebanon.

    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Lebanese_Civil_War?t=3.#3.

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  16. vzaSeptember 15, 2009 at 9:34 AM

    Good lord, nobody has clean hands in all of this, do they? One  betrayal and massacre after another.

    Still, this seems to have set the stage for a lot of the mess that would follow:


    Due to major Arab political pressure, the Cairo AgreementGamal Abdel Nasser in 1969, the Lebanese were forced to allow a foreign force (the PLO) to conduct military operations against Israel from inside their own territory. Although initially very reluctant to sign, the Lebanese government saw this accord as its last hope of regaining control of the country whereby it was agreed that attacks would be carried out in co-ordination with the Lebanese army. The PLO were granted full control over the refugee camps, but soon much of southern Lebanon fell under their effective rule and rarely was the accord abided by. As fighters poured in from Jordan after the Black SeptemberShi'a villagers. Much the same way that the PLO had lost its welcome in Jordan, Muslim support for the Palestinians began to erode in Lebanon. brokered by Egyptian President destruction of the PLO's apparatus there, the PLO's presence became overbearing to many of inhabitants of these areas. The radical factions operated as a law unto themselves, and quickly alienated conservative  Shi'a villagers. Much the same way that the PLO had lost its welcome in Jordan, Muslim support for the Palestinians began to erode in Lebanon.

    Every Lebanese I have ever met, blamed most of the troubles on the PLO.

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  17. vzaSeptember 15, 2009 at 9:35 AM

    <span>Good lord, nobody has clean hands in all of this, do they? One  betrayal and massacre after another.  
     
    Still, this seems to have set the stage for a lot of the mess that would follow:  
     
      
    Due to major Arab political pressure, the Cairo AgreementGamal Abdel Nasser in 1969, the Lebanese were forced to allow a foreign force (the PLO) to conduct military operations against Israel from inside their own territory. Although initially very reluctant to sign, the Lebanese government saw this accord as its last hope of regaining control of the country whereby it was agreed that attacks would be carried out in co-ordination with the Lebanese army. The PLO were granted full control over the refugee camps, but soon much of southern Lebanon fell under their effective rule and rarely was the accord abided by. As fighters poured in from Jordan after the Black SeptemberShi'a villagers. Much the same way that the PLO had lost its welcome in Jordan, Muslim support for the Palestinians began to erode in Lebanon. brokered by Egyptian President destruction of the PLO's apparatus there, the PLO's presence became overbearing to many of inhabitants of these areas. The radical factions operated as a law unto themselves, and quickly alienated conservative  Shi'a villagers. Much the same way that the PLO had lost its welcome in Jordan, Muslim support for the Palestinians began to erode in Lebanon.  </span>

    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Lebanese_Civil_War?t=3.#3.
    <span>
     
    Every Lebanese I have ever met, blamed most of the troubles on the PLO.</span>

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  18. vSeptember 15, 2009 at 10:14 AM

    Vza,  I provided an answer for you before,  but like a good little hasbara hag you keep bringing it up.  Do you think you have some new born freedom because my time has been less?

    This has been and continues (Hama) to be brought up,  just because you're bullshit western press does not cover it does not mean that it has not been decried.  I can't believe you brought this up again after I verbally kicked your ass from pillar to post previously about this same subject. People that repeat themselves like you do re eithe on a mission or are mentally challenged.

    This story is as old as the Wests constant exploitation of a given region. Once again,  the actors that were involved hag were moneyed interest from France. That is where the investment money came from to build hotels and sight seeing tourist attractions.  There were no Mosques built,  nothing even remotely resembling Islamic interest.

    Perhaps the reason why it does not get mentioned more is because the Western interest and attendant atrocities are so numerous,  it is hard to keep track of them all.  Now,  deny what I said and I will refer with a link back to the last time I kicked your hasbara hag ass verbally on this same subject.

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  19. vSeptember 15, 2009 at 10:18 AM

    And the Nazis blamed the Jews vza,  just like the "Christian" Nazis in Lebanon blame the PLO.  You are really terminally stupid aren't you. 

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  20. Jemmy HopeSeptember 15, 2009 at 11:33 AM

    I accept that the the Fatah militias behaved abominably in Lebanon, acting like an occupying force, acting like the bloody IDF. But it was not the fida'yin that  the cowardly SLA and Phalange militias turned on, but the ordinary defenceless refugees. They (Phalange) really are  fascist scum,  as  Professor AbuKhalil often iterates.

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  21. GuestSeptember 15, 2009 at 11:49 AM

    Lebanese militia: Furious about the Palies' massacre of hundreds of innocent men, women,and children in Damour:

    Father Labaky telephoned the Muslim sheikh of the district and asked him, as a fellow religious leader, what he could do to help the people of the town. 'I can do nothing,' he was told 'They want to harm you. It is the Palestinians. I cannot stop them.'


    'In the morning I managed to get to the one house despite the shelling to bring out some of the corpses. And I remember something which still frightens me. An entire family had been killed, the Can'an family, four children all dead, and the mother, the father, and the grandfather. The mother was still hugging one of the children. And she was pregnant. The eyes of the children were gone and their limbs were cut off. No legs and no arms. It was awful...

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  22. GuestSeptember 15, 2009 at 11:50 AM

    contd.

    Whole families were killed in their homes. Many women were gang-raped, and few of them left alive afterwards. One woman saved her adolescent daughter from rape by smearing her face with washing blue to make her look repulsive. As the atrocities were perpetrated, the invaders themselves took photographs and later offered the pictures for sale to European newspapers...


    In all, 582 people were killed in the storming of Damour. Father Labaky went back with the Red Cross to bury them. Many of the bodies had been dismembered, so they had to count the heads to number the dead. Three of the men they found had their genitals cut off and stuffed into their mouths.

    The horror did not end there, the old Christian cemetery was also destroyed, coffins were dug up, the dead robbed, vaults opened, and bodies and skeletons thrown across the grave yard. Damour was then transformed into a stronghold of Fatah and the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). The ruined town became one of the main PLO centers for the promotion of international terrorism. The Church of St Elias was used as a repair garage for PLO vehicles and also as a range for shooting-practice with targets painted on the eastern wall of the nave.

    http://www.lebaneseforces.com/blastfromthepast002.asp

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  23. vzaSeptember 15, 2009 at 11:58 AM

    Yes, they do sound like thugs of the first order.

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  24. vzaSeptember 15, 2009 at 12:26 PM

    <span> Do you think you have some new born freedom because my time has been less? </span>

    :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D Too, tooo funny! Oh yes, v. When the cat's away, the mice will play. I just knew you were probably somewhere in the depths of the earth, tunnelling your way to Israel's center of power. While you were occupied with singlehandedly dismantling the Zionist usurping entity, I was going to counter your efforts and spread hasbara!

    Forgive me, forgive me. How could I forget that French capitalists were the ones really responsible for the flattening of Hama?

    The only ass you kick, you little twerp, is in your dreams.

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  25. vSeptember 15, 2009 at 3:46 PM

    Listen you conceited little ass,  there is not one subject that you have posted here that was incorrect that you were not totally and factually downed with if I participated.  You make no fucking arguments at all,  you are just a harbara punk - no depth whatsoever in any "analysis" you hold out in you pudgy little hands. You're like a tiny reed in the wind,  a half-baked mental nitwit that loves to go to bed with empire - imperialism - and Zionism.  You fool no one,  perhaps you deceive yourself,  that is about it. You try to tread where not even the "experts" do because you are terminally stupid, in fact you are the new award winner of this skit -"what are you going to do? Bleed on me?"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno

    We will call it a "draw" imbecile....lol

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  26. thankgodimatheistSeptember 15, 2009 at 5:30 PM

    The hama massacre was conducted by Rifaat al Assad, Hafez' brother. He was exiled to Paris for it, because as some suggested was not approved by the president. Additionally, very few knew of it until it was long finished.

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  27. thankgodimatheistSeptember 15, 2009 at 5:32 PM

    Settlers are murdering Arabs on a weekly basis.

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  28. VAASeptember 15, 2009 at 11:37 PM

    This is a real gem.

    Well vza every Lebanese I know , and I am one. Would laugh at such conclusion. It sounds to me like you've being hanging around the same criminal group ( Phalangist ) that carried out the massacres on behalf of their masters . The fact that some other massacre somewhere , in the Arab world or in Wagga Wagga does not justify what happened in  Sabra and Shatila.

    BTW The Phalangist are Christians , I'm not sure which Moslem massacre against Christians you're referring too when you say " because of the many massacres the Christians endured at the hands of Muslims". Which century ??

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  29. VAASeptember 15, 2009 at 11:38 PM

    Every Lebanese I have ever met, blamed most of the troubles on the PLO
    vza
    ------

    This is a real gem.

    Well vza every Lebanese I know , and I am one. Would laugh at such conclusion. It sounds to me like you've being hanging around the same criminal group ( Phalangist ) that carried out the massacres on behalf of their masters . The fact that some other massacre somewhere , in the Arab world or in Wagga Wagga does not justify what happened in  Sabra and Shatila.

    BTW The Phalangist are Christians , I'm not sure which Moslem massacre against Christians you're referring too when you say " because of the many massacres the Christians endured at the hands of Muslims"

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  30. VAASeptember 15, 2009 at 11:49 PM

    Notice vza , I haven't tried to justify the massacre against the brothers in Hama by mentioning their atrocities against innocent Alawites who just happened to be Academics , Doctors , Lawyers , writers and so on , even a simple university degree would qualify.

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  31. VAASeptember 16, 2009 at 12:03 AM

    What's more sick r.s. is someone who treat it as " a well other atrocities happened too , so what's so special about this one "

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  32. thankgodimatheistSeptember 16, 2009 at 12:25 AM

    vza
    In all honesty I can't help but wonder why you care far more about countering our arguments at this side of the fence while you never have a single word to say to those on the other side like the genocidal settler who's been spewing the most outrageous stuff, or fleming who's hardly any less extremist in his views. You seem to be, (oddly enough because we know you're not THAT extreme) accomodating quite well with what they have to say. Shouldn't that be sending the message that we are far more dangerous group that those two filthy characters?..Just wondering..

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  33. thankgodimatheistSeptember 16, 2009 at 12:42 AM

    In other words why are we, generally speaking, your target of choice?

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  34. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 5:17 AM

     Target? Interesting that you see it that way. Precisely because you are not extreme. What on earth is there to say to a genocidal settler that has not been said here? While fleming can be outrageous and taunting with some of his statements, he is hardly an extremist, but has no interest in entertaining another point of view about Israel so there is not much to discuss with him.

    <span> Shouldn't that be sending the message that we are far more dangerous group that those two filthy characters?</span>

    Sorry, that made me laugh. No Tgia, the message is that you guys are a far more interesting group to engage with when the prevalent view of Israel in the U.S. is what it it is.
    Oh well. I see where this is going though. I am quite willing to leave of my own accord, Tgia. If you want this blog to simply be a small group of like-minded people who basically agree on everything of note, that's certainly your call. Say so and I will stop commenting.

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  35. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 5:20 AM

    <span>BTW The Phalangist are Christians , I'm not sure which Moslem massacre against Christians you're referring too when you say " because of the many massacres the Christians endured at the hands of Muslims" </span>

    Are you sure you do not want to revise this one?

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  36. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 5:22 AM

    <span>The fact that some other massacre somewhere , in the Arab world or in Wagga Wagga does not justify what happened in  Sabra and Shatila. </span>

    I am sorry, but there is nothing in anything I wrote that one could conclude I was justifying what happened in Sabra and Shatila. Very cheap shot.

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  37. thankgodimatheistSeptember 16, 2009 at 7:28 AM

    Sorry but you got me totally wrong. My observation again is as follows. In everything we say, there a matter for rebuttal and argumentation and that's fair enough. What I find interesting though is that you could have, being more or less a neutral observer, many opportunities to disagree with people like fleming and yishai but you never did or maybe just once in an answer to fleming after which he was so surprised that he doubted it was you wgo have rebutted him!! That made me think..Why are WE the only ones to be adressed( if you prefer to targeted)? Fleming says many outrageous things and yet you don't feel concerned the least about it..Not that you have to mind you but wouldn't it be interesting to engage some others you disagree with, if you do?


    <span>While fleming can be outrageous and taunting with some of his statements, he is hardly an extremist, but has no interest in entertaining another point of view about Israel so there is not much to discuss with him.</span>
    <span>I beg to disagree, there's a lot to discuss with him...I think he would listen to you and it would have helped a lot if you acted with him the way you act with us.</span>
    Finally, I don't think it ever crossed my mind or wished that you leave. That doesn't make much sense to tell you the truth. I insist that I'd welcome dissenting views to the exclusion of the rude and noxious taunts.

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  38. VAASeptember 16, 2009 at 4:34 PM

    Are you sure you do not want to revise this one?
    -------
    vza. I'm asking you a direct and clear question.I don't expect an ambiguous answer like " You really want me to tell you ? ".Are you referring to the Dammour's or is it Saladin ? 

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  39. VAASeptember 16, 2009 at 4:38 PM

    I am sorry, but there is nothing in anything I wrote that one could conclude I was justifying what happened in Sabra and Shatila. Very cheap shot. vza
    --------
    Cheap shot ?.The implication is there. And it's not the first time .there seem to be a pattern when massacres are mentioned.

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  40. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 5:11 PM

    That comment was not particularly about Lebanon, VAA. It was a response to Fisk. Reread:

    <span><span>Also, Fisk's comment:    
    <span><span>"why so many Muslims have come to hate the West"</span></span>    
       
    With the same reasoning, then perhaps it is also understandable, because of the many massacres the Christians endured at the hands of Muslims, for Christians to have sought revenge?  Then we can look at the massacres of Jews by both Christians and Muslims and we could understand perhaps their actions? Even a cursory look at history will provide us all with reasons for all sorts of reciprocal hatreds.
    </span></span>

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  41. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 5:32 PM

    This is how I began my original comment.

    <span><span>Truly horrific and there is no excuse on this earth for allowing that to happen.</span></span>

    I think that pretty conclusively implies there is NO justification for what happened.

    Oh wait, perhaps you mean I am implying in a sneaky kind of way, that if there is no excuse on earth, then perhaps one can be found in the heavens?
    ...........................................................................
    As far as the other objection you have, I know a handful of Lebanese. All blame the PLO. I have no way of knowing if what they say is true, partially true, or a damn lie. This little handful of people lived through it all,  Are you saying the Phalange was responsible for most of the troubles in Lebanon? Perhaps you could enlighten me?

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  42. thankgodimatheistSeptember 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM

    <span> If you want this blog to simply be a small group of like-minded people who basically agree on everything of note, that's certainly your call. Say so and I will stop commenting.</span>
    ---------------
    WHERE on earth did I allude to that? I didn't say I minded that you challenge our arguments, always welcome, I only wondered why do you treat fleming differently? I think fleming would have been much more flexible if he had encountered the slightest challenge from you!! A missed opportunity if you ask me.

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  43. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 6:46 PM

    <span><span>I beg to disagree, there's a lot to discuss with him...I think he would listen to you and it would have helped a lot if you acted with him the way you act with us.</span>  </span>

    Perhaps you are right and I could have done so, but really I pick and choose what I respond to. Based on time and interests. Because my thoughts about U.S. unconditional support for Israel changed, fleming jokingly thought I was not really vza. I have no problem with that. I was a 100 percent supporter of Israel until I took a trip that opened my eyes and came back and started reading things( on the professor's blog!) that did not square with the usual narrative of the poor, plunky little country beseiged on all sides. I attempteda couple of times to convey some of this to fleming, but he was not buying it. That's okay. Each in his own time.

      Fleming's more outrgaeous comments? Sorry, I think those are the result of some sort of weird friction between you guys, and I had no intention of getting caught up in the middle of it, since I liked both of you!

    But remember, Tgia, I have been around both blogs long enough to remember just how dissenting opinions were treated ...and it wasn't with reasoned response for the most part! I know  some of my earliest comments on  the blogs were met with a barrage of invective and worse!
    You should not be surprised when some respond in kind.

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  44. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 6:47 PM

    <span><span><span>I beg to disagree, there's a lot to discuss with him...I think he would listen to you and it would have helped a lot if you acted with him the way you act with us.</span>  </span>  
     
    Perhaps you are right and I could have done so, but really I pick and choose what I respond to. Based on time and interests. Because my thoughts about U.S. unconditional support for Israel changed, fleming jokingly thought I was not really vza. I have no problem with that. I was a 100 percent supporter of Israel until I took a trip that opened my eyes and came back and started reading things( on the professor's blog!) that did not square with the usual narrative of the poor, plucky little country beseiged on all sides. I attempteda couple of times to convey some of this to fleming, but he was not buying it. That's okay. Each in his own time.  
     
      Fleming's more outrgaeous comments? Sorry, I think those are the result of some sort of weird friction between you guys, and I had no intention of getting caught up in the middle of it, since I liked both of you!  
     
    But remember, Tgia, I have been around both blogs long enough to remember just how dissenting opinions were treated ...and it wasn't with reasoned response for the most part! I know  some of my earliest comments on  the blogs were met with a barrage of invective and worse!  
    You should not be surprised when some respond in kind.</span>

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  45. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 6:49 PM

    <span><span><span><span>I beg to disagree, there's a lot to discuss with him...I think he would listen to you and it would have helped a lot if you acted with him the way you act with us.</span>  </span>    
       
    Perhaps you are right and I could have done so, but really I pick and choose what I respond to. Based on time and interests. Because my thoughts about U.S. unconditional support for Israel changed, fleming jokingly thought I was not really vza. I have no problem with that. I was a 100 percent supporter of Israel until I took a trip that opened my eyes and came back and started reading things( on the professor's blog!) that did not square with the usual narrative of the poor, plucky little country beseiged on all sides. I attempteda couple of times to convey some of this to fleming, but he was not buying it. That's okay. Each in his own time.    
       
      Fleming's more outrgaeous comments? Sorry, I think those are the result of some sort of weird friction between you guys, and I had no intention of getting caught up in the middle of it, since I liked all of you!    
       
    But remember, Tgia, I have been around both blogs long enough to remember just how dissenting opinions were treated ...and it wasn't with reasoned response for the most part! I know  some of my earliest comments on  the blogs were met with a barrage of invective and worse!    
    You should not be surprised when some respond in kind.</span></span>

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  46. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 7:14 PM

    <span>I think fleming would have been much more flexible if he had encountered the slightest challenge from you!! A missed opportunity if you ask me.</span>

    Perhaps.

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  47. thankgodimatheistSeptember 16, 2009 at 9:21 PM

    <span>Perhaps.</span>
    -----------
    I'm certain...He viewed you on his side implicitly or explicitly right or wrong. It emboldened him to a degree where he became a talking wall..The outrageous comments he could come up with are not the fruit of my imagination. That we are cave dwellers who have not contributed anything to humanity for 2000 years(sic!) is just one of them. That he cuts my sentence in half to post the first half to prove that "I said it myself", is another despicable method which was the feather that broke the camel's back! I could at times be unsure of the need to ban him but THIS gave me a certitude that the creep should be out of the door as quickly as possible!

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  48. vzaSeptember 16, 2009 at 11:35 PM

    <span>I'm certain...He viewed you on his side implicitly or explicitly right or wrong. It emboldened him to a degree where he became a talking wall..</span>

    What?! Where on earth do you get the idea that I could influence what fleming would or would not say?
    I do not get that at all. The only side I was on was in agreeing with him that we were not going to let go unchallenged, unfair attacks upon our country and its people.
     The rest of it.... I did not see the example you gave, but  if so, yes, that is wrong.
    I am not going to take any of this too seriously. though. It is just a blog. I like the odd mix of characters who assemble here and can honestly say I've learned something interesting to think about at one time or another, from all.

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  49. GuestSeptember 17, 2009 at 3:07 AM

    Lebanese officer, Robert Hatem's eyewitness account of Sabra and Shatila, as described on a Lebanese web site:

    "General Ariel Sharon had given strict orders to Hobeika to guard against any desperate move, should his men run amok. Their mission was to exert pressure on the Palestinians to drive them all out of the camp, and pick out the PLO agents left behind after the evacuation of the Palestinians in August, 1982. They were rallied at the Cite Sportive and held prisoners. AFTER INSPECTION, THE CIVILIANS WOULD BE SENT BACK TO THEIR HOMES," HE WRITES. HOWEVER, CONTINUES HATEM, HOBEIKA GAVE HIS OWN INSTRUCTIONS TO HIS MEN: "TOTAL EXTERMINATION ... CAMPS WIPED OUT."

    At 7:30 p.m. on September 16, 1982, Hobeika and I arrived at General Ariel Sharon's Headquarters.  We climbed up to the terrace of the tall building next to the Kuweity Embassy.  From there we could plunge right into the camp and have an overhead view. Besides the Israeli officers, Assaad Shaftari, Michel Zouein, Elie Hobeika "H.K." and myself were poised and ready.

    The Israeli officers were jealous and filled with rage, blaming Hobeika for actually ordering the massacre of Palestinian civilians. Hobeika coldly retorted that it was because of the darkness he could not tell who they were.

    General Sharon, being too fat to climb up the flight of stairs, waited on the second floor to see Hobeika and have it out with him personally. The minute he saw him he roared out: "You were not supposed to do this. I didn't ask you to commit massacres. If I wanted, I would have done so with my tanks. You'll pay dearly for this blunder!"

    ... I was Hobeika's field man always present on the premises with my chief wherever he went.   I can state under oath, that General Sharon would never have lit up the area the way he did had he planned for any butchery. He would not have cleaned up the Cite Sportive to house all the Palestinians pending their return to their homes after verification. He would not have placed his tanks and armored cars all around the camps to capture the remaining armed Palestinian agents.

    http://www.free-lebanon.com/News/Documents_of_Note/DOC_chap8/doc_chap8.html

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  50. VAASeptember 17, 2009 at 4:32 PM

    <p style="">Phalange was responsible for most of the troubles in Lebanon? 
    <p style="">------
    <p style="">That's debatable, everyone had an interests in the civil war . But having lived in Lebanon for part of the war , the Phalange  were certainly responsible for the most atrocious crimes , and what followed was tit for tat. All in all , Christians as well as  Moslems had blood on their hands. 
    <div><span style=""><span style="">
    </span></span></div>

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