Stephen M. Walt
One of the many barriers to developing a saner U.S. foreign policy is our collective failure to appreciate why military occupations generate so much hatred, resentment, and resistance, and why we should therefore go to enormous lengths to avoid getting mired in them. Costly occupations are an activity you hope your adversaries undertake, especially in areas of little intrinsic strategic value. We blundered into Somalia in the early 1990s without realizing that we weren't welcome; we invaded Iraq thinking we would be greeted as liberators, and we still don't fully understand why many Afghans resent our presence and why some are driven to take up arms against us.
True, but I think the important qualifier is "prolonged" occupation. Prolonged and/or poorly planned and mismanaged occupations ( IRAQ!) will certainly engender resistance.
ReplyDeleteGermany and Japan were also occupied and I am sure the people bristled under occupation, too. However, wiser heads prevailed and they did not cut off their noses to spite their faces....you know, like going around slaughtering large numbers of their own people and stealing everything that was or was not nailed down, all the while claiming they were resisting the occupation.
As far as the inclusion of the occupation of the South after the Civil War as one of Walt's examples...what? I guess we should have just accepeted the Confederacy and all it stood for and then military action and occupation would not have been necessary? Please.
Worry about why anybody hates us.....forget it. I would not spend one second of my life worrying about anybody who spends their spare time burning flags (with one eye on the camera, of course!) and jumping up and down waving their fists in an orchestrated movement. The Middle East has a surfeit of blowhards and weaklings who prey on their own and do nothing about their own oppressive governments. All the fury unleashed upon Iraq by the noble resistance could have been better spent trying to dismantle all of the oppressive regimes they are always whining about. They have the guts to run down the Copts, a defenseless minority, and destroy whole villages and scores of businesses but do not have the guts to stand up to Mubabrak.
<span>True, but I think the important qualifier is "prolonged" occupation. Prolonged and/or poorly planned and mismanaged occupations ( IRAQ!) will certainly engender resistance.
ReplyDeleteGermany and Japan were also occupied and I am sure the people bristled under occupation, too. However, wiser heads prevailed and they did not cut off their noses to spite their faces....you know, like going around slaughtering large numbers of their own people and stealing everything that was or was not nailed down, all the while claiming they were resisting the occupation.
As far as the inclusion of the occupation of the South after the Civil War as one of Walt's examples...what? I guess we should have just accepeted the Confederacy and all it stood for and then military action and occupation would not have been necessary? Please.
Worry about why anybody hates us.....forget it. I would not spend one second of my life worrying about anybody who spends their spare time burning flags (with one eye on the camera, of course!) and jumping up and down waving their fists in an orchestrated movement. Look at the jerks in that photo! Who does stuff like that? The Middle East has a surfeit of blowhards and weaklings who prey on their own and do nothing about their own governments. All the fury unleashed upon Iraq by the noble resistance could have been better spent trying to dismantle all of the oppressive regimes they are always whining about. They have the guts to run down the Copts, a defenseless minority, and destroy whole villages and scores of businesses but do not have the guts to stand up to a Mubabrak or an Assad.
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vza,
ReplyDeleteWe, myself included, must learn that things are rarely cut and dry. For example, contrary to what As'ad says, I believe that the Iraqis turned the tables on the US occupation. It is conveniently forgotten at times that the US had no intention of allowing elections to be held the way they actually were. Once Sistani grabbed ahold of things and started influencing "policy" [for lack of a better word], the US had no choice but to step back and let Iraqis take charge. Although it does help when the occupying power is a bungling fool.
Another example hits close to home. Puerto Rico is arguably "occupied" by the US to this day (making that over a hundred years of occupation). However, we recently booted the last remaining US naval base off our land. Would a submissive occupied people have achieved such a feat? However, we were able to "turn the tables" on the US much earlier when our local government undertook Operation Bootstrap which was highly influenced by Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. Consequently, to this day, and much to the chagrin of conservative statesiders, we have a huge public sector economy. Once the US saw it couldn't influence us away from the New Deal legacy we had enthusiastically assimilated, the discontinued trumpeting Puerto Rico as an example to be emulated.
History is more grey that black and white. :)
Since it is Thanksgiving, I can afford to continue the yarn...
ReplyDeletevza says
<span><span>I would not spend one second of my life worrying about anybody who spends their spare time burning flags (with one eye on the camera, of course!) and jumping up and down waving their fists in an orchestrated movement. Look at the jerks in that photo! Who does stuff like that? The Middle East has a surfeit of blowhards and weaklings who prey on their own and do nothing about their own governments.</span></span>
Can I assume that we have finally set to rest the myth that the US and its myriad of bases and high tech military nonsense is doing anything at all to ameliorate the situation you describe?
<span> Would a submissive occupied people have achieved such a feat? </span>
ReplyDeleteTrue, but those who were opposed to the base played it smart and did not run rampant through the island killing their fellow Puerto Ricans and destroying any attempts to fix or develop the infrastructure did they? Non-violent does not necessarily mean submissive, as I am sure you will agree. I cannot for the life of me see how the Iraqi resistance...any of the various factions...did anything but destroy their own people and country.
Good for Puerto Rico but I wonder, when will you all take the next step and vote for independemce, with all the responsibilities and privileges that entails?
So glad to see you back! :)
And then, 13 years ago, I let it go. Not that I changed my mind about the atrocities that had occurred or the lies that had been told about them. Not that I become enamored with the foolish iconography of Thanksgiving, including elementary school displays of construction paper Pilgrim hats and feathered headbands. Not that I did not and do not fully understand the feelings of those who cannot bring themselves past their rage at this celebration which has been given a full platter of historical up-is-downism.
ReplyDeleteBut I got tired of missing out on the celebration and the food ... and I missed having a birthday party. And I realized, finally, that I also had missed the point that this holiday can be a healer, a remembrance of our roots but with our eyes on the present and the future. So, this year, as in the past few, I'll be together with some of my best friends, white, red and black. As we have for several Thanksgivings, we'll tell the children (and grandchildren) the true story of Thanksgiving.
And we'll give thanks that we live in a country where remembering the past need not shackle us to it.
Wise man.
<span>Can I assume that we have finally set to rest the myth that the US and its myriad of bases and high tech military nonsense is doing anything at all to ameliorate the situation you describe?</span>
ReplyDeleteIf it were up to me, we would leave the region.
Why should we? We have US citizenship. We don't pay Federal taxes. And we kicked the Navy off our land.
ReplyDeleteSoooo ..... Who won the Spanish American war in our nick of the woods? :-D
I'm being facetious, or am I not? 8-)
<span>Why should we? We have US citizenship. We don't pay Federal taxes. And we kicked the Navy off our land. </span>
ReplyDelete:-D Exactly!
Ah,.... It's good to be back among like minded individuals =-O here at AACS!
ReplyDeleteWhat!!?? And give up the fantabulous sport of observing conservative wingnuts in the US burst several arteries as they feverishly try to figure out how to go about jettisoning Puerto Rico from the union?
ReplyDeleteThat's Priceless!
LOL!!!
I know you would like to think that is happening, but really, nobody is bursting any arteries over Puerto Rico.
ReplyDeleteSurprised. huh? All of you just won me over with your ...er stellar arguments.
ReplyDeleteA very sad (and superficial) comment vza..It's basically caricature..Incredibly offensive and degrading....
ReplyDeleteHave no time unfortunately for details..
<span>A very disappointing (mostly superficial) comment vza..It's basically caricature..Incredibly offensive and degrading to the hundreds of thousands victims and their families....Not to mention that, true, resistance is rarely pretty or even very ugly. See the Algerian resistance.
ReplyDeleteHave no time unfortunately for elaboration..I have to go.
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<span><span>A very disappointing (mostly superficial) comment vza..It's basically caricature..Incredibly offensive and degrading to the hundreds of thousands victims and their families....Not to mention that, true, resistance is rarely pretty and can be even ugly. Examples abound all over the world..
ReplyDeleteHave no time unfortunately for elaboration..I have to go.</span></span>
"...acting from more-or-less benevolent motives."
ReplyDeleteI think that about sums up the "realist" school of Mr. Walt. I enjoyed all of the back slapping and jovial banter above, it is "priceless." What seems to slip with all of the "celebration" is the fact that when talking about the WW2 postwar activity, was the plan to rebuild. That which is decidedly absent from much of the "occupation" acitivity today. In fact the idea is to saddle the "Liberated" country with a political apparatus through "foreign aid" that continues to reward debasement of their people, and much of it being military (the old circle jerk of supporting out military industrial complex with the people tax money, that circles right back into their pockets).
If you take a look at any of the plans for the developing countries, you will find the old trio of acceptable dictators, stripping of the natural and human resources (sometimes both), and the propects of a debt slavery furture laden with misery. So much for the simplistic writings of M&W, who did a hell of a job on the lobby, but gave us nothing but unmittigated bullshit in regard to current US foreign policy.
So America, just like in their recent volume is that benevolent stumbling idiot with nothing but good in its heart - sort of like the character in Mice And Men who cannot hold mice in his hands without crushing them - accidently of course. However, who could have avoided such conclusions on this "special" day, where people celebrate genocide - happy genocide day!
happy genocide day!
ReplyDelete----------------
Hey, it was for the better of civilisation!
Since Joe has not showed up with his anual thanksgiving prayer, I might as well post it -
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I31hQ8TrT5M&feature=related
Since Joe has not showed up to grace us with the American thanksgiving prayer, I might as well post it -
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8m_J6sXj_0
Also, here is some wonderful memories of the great American cities -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swzQPz8oB1w
Happy Memories
Burroughs' prayer? Oooo! Moody music and directed by Gus Van Zant?
ReplyDeleteSorry, the pontifications about and judgments of America by a heroin junkie who destroyed his own and others' lives...including his son's, provoke in me nothing more than sorrow for them all.
vza:
ReplyDeleteI assume you also automatically dismiss everything Thomas Jefferson said also...after all, he literally enslaved his own children and destroyed hundreds of lives by selling slaves and breaking up families to pay off debts...and he couldn't have done that if he didn't own slaves in the first place.
It does not matter Joe, they don't give a shit, as long as they have what they want. The beast that they worship is now starting to turn on them, and they will not let so much of a whimper escape before they are swallowed whole.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hdt87rhgSc
v:
ReplyDeleteMy own experience has been that it is true believers who whimper the loudest at the slightest inconvenience-a pothole that isn't fixed immediately is an injustice of historic proportions. I can only imagine how they will wail and moan when they have to face the mess they helped create.
thanks I am glad my video tutorials are very helpful. I have lots more in the making and I am also thinking about creating a website dedicated to the subject. Again, thanks everyone for your support, questions and comments
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bocasecuritylocksmith.com/boca_raton_locksmith.html
vza
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong on that one! I received a significant number of hyperventilating wing nut comments on the subject at my blog (most of which I had to delete because they contained obscenities). I receive anonymous emails and even phone calls (from right wing people I know) blowing off an inordinate amount of steam: "Get off our welfare rolls!!!" I didn't know people cared so much about what I said! Why bother? I was quite amused, to say the least. 8-)
One always learns something. I didn't know much about the Assyrians until you forced me to look up some of their history for myself.
ReplyDeleteReally? I am surpprised.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, the current status is really not good for Puerto Rico, either. I think it should be indpendence or statehood. What do you think?
I would reply in detail but I am in the middle of organizing a massive protest because of the pothole in front of my house!
ReplyDeleteNo, I only automatically dismiss one sided, bitter diatribes that ignore all the good that was done and the people who fought on the side of angels. I am not interested in superficial snapshots of America by someone who needed a parental allowance for most of his life and robbed drunks to get his drugs.
ReplyDeleteA hypocritical Thomas Jefferson's contributions will always far out weigh anything Burroughs and Van Zant have ever produced.
Your objection to Burroughs was that he had a parental trust fund? Um, where did Thomas Jefferson get the money to start Monticello?
ReplyDeleteYou may not like Burroughs, but he writes about integral aspects of our culture which are largely ignored. He was a junky for years and wrote about that world and the similarities it has with the larger culture. It may not be a truth you are willing to face, but the addiction experience had a profound effect on his vision of the world, and it is reflected in his writing. I believe he is more prophetic than a malcontent.
As usual, you have missed my point. It is not that I dislike Burroughs. Why on earth would I dislike him? I am simply not willing to accept that HIS version of America is America. It may be one part of America but that is about it.
ReplyDelete<span>Your objection to Burroughs was that he had a parental trust fund? Um, where did Thomas Jefferson get the money to start Monticello? </span>
Oh yes Joe, my objection was all about his allowance.
Unreal.
One of your points to discredit Burroughs was that he came from a wealthy background. I was merely addressing what you said, even though I felt is was irrelevant.
ReplyDelete<span>As usual, you have missed my point. It is not that I dislike Burroughs. Why on earth would I dislike him? I am simply not willing to accept that HIS version of America is America. It may be one part of America but that is about it. </span>
You do have a point that Burroughs wrote about his experience in America and that it is not a definitive account of the totality of the country. But what I do to try to get a grasp of a subject is to read many different accounts from as many different view points as I can and then I try to distill a vision of the subject as a whole. Burroughs' experience in the underbelly of America is as legitimate as Thomas Edison's experience in his retirement home in Florida and we should not ignore it because it isn't written for the purpose of boosting morale.
<span>One of your points to discredit Burroughs was that he came from a wealthy background</span>
ReplyDeleteWrong! I made no such point. It had nothing to do with his parent's wealth but everything to do with the poor soul's inability to conduct a LIFE without drugs and a monthly allowance from his parents. In my experience, too many people like that have a distinct inability to look to themselves for the failings within and instead blame everybody and everything else for their problems.
His rantings may be very chic in certain circles and rock stars and disaffected youth love that sort of thing, but most of us eventually grow up and leave all of that behind us. I have more sympathy for the son whose young life was destroyed by his father's irresponsibiity.
<span>Burroughs' experience in the underbelly of America is as legitimate as Thomas Edison's experienc...</span>
Well of course, it is as legitimate..it happened here in America. That does not make the underbelly of life the norm or the defining characteristic of this country.
I doubt you people read beyond the first paragraphs . The article is less about Thanksgiving than it is about drawing a parallel with the Palestinian experience..
ReplyDeleteI think we are all well aware of that Tgia, but we digressed.
ReplyDeletevza:
ReplyDeleteI know what you mean: Thomas Jefferson could not lead his life without his parents' money or indulging in his passion for raping adolescent slave girls. And if you are concerned about Billy Burroughs(his son), then you must have nightmares about Jefferson's dark skinned children picking cotton and getting whipped(Jefferson was that kind of master)while his white children were living like aristocracy.
And my experience has been that people who are so desperate to keep looking at the sunny side of life usually have something going on in the dark side of life.
By the way, Burroughs is recognized as one of the most influential modern writers. Your characterization of his readers does not reflect reality.
tgia:
ReplyDeleteI read the article, but I admit I don't read every article. A lot of stuff is posted here and I don't have time to carefully read everything. I tend to post more about issues that effect Americans mainly because that's where I am and what I experience everyday. I may be a minority of one on this site, but I actually come here to learn something about what's going on in the Mideast. I know there is limited information on that region available in the US, and I'm trying to learn as much as I can-sometimes to do this, it is wise to shut up and listen instead of being reflexively defensive or trying to show off how smart I am.
<span>And my experience has been that people who are so desperate to keep looking at the sunny side of life usually have something going on in the dark side of life.
ReplyDelete</span>
Oh my.
The rest does not even deserve an, oh my.
<span>I may be a minority of one on this site, </span>
ReplyDelete--------------
Actually Joe, you're in the majority. We have very few non Americans readers/commenters.
<span> it is wise to shut up and listen instead of being reflexively defensive or trying to show off how smart I am.</span>
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No joe by any means. I greatly appreciate your comments.. I reciprocally learn a lot about the US from you all. Besides, when you comment here it indicates to me that you care and that you're reading and listening.
<span><span>I may be a minority of one on this site, </span>
ReplyDelete--------------
Actually Joe, you're in the majority. We have very few non Americans readers/commenters.
<span> it is wise to shut up and listen instead of being reflexively defensive or trying to show off how smart I am.</span>
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No joe by any means. I greatly appreciate your comments.. I reciprocally learn a lot about the US from you all. Besides, when you comment here it indicates to me that you care and that you're reading and listening.Without that, it would feel like a very loneley and depressing exercise.
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<span><span><span>I may be a minority of one on this site, </span>
ReplyDelete--------------
Actually Joe, you're in the majority. We have very few non Americans readers/commenters.
<span> it is wise to shut up and listen instead of being reflexively defensive or trying to show off how smart I am.</span>
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No joe by any means. I greatly appreciate your comments.. I reciprocally learn a lot about the US from you all. Besides, when you comment here it indicates to me that you care and that you're reading and listening.Without that, it would feel like a very lonely and depressing exercise.
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tgia:
ReplyDeleteThanks...but I don't comment if I don't have anything to add or sometimes what I want to say is kind of involved and by the time I worked out in my mind what I want to say the thread has gone stale.
Yes joe..Posting too much is has sometimes a hindering effect on the comments a thread might get..The dilemma is obvious. Where to draw the line? Keeping abreast of the news or allow exchange and comments to develop and thrive..Any ideas?
ReplyDelete<span>Yes joe..Posting too much has sometimes a hindering effect on the comments a thread might potentially get or deserve getting..The dilemma is obvious. Where to draw the line? Keeping abreast of the news or allow exchange and comments to develop and thrive..Any ideas?</span>
ReplyDeleteAny ideas? My problem is I have too many ideas! I'll toss a few out: Maybe write a daily synopsis of the news for each area we look at with all the links provided at the end or within the synopsis. For instance, all Israeli activity could be combined into one post. That would cut down on the number of posts each day and make it easier for us to keep up with the news, plus it would streamline all the mini-threads into one substantive thread. You could also have a general discussion thread to catch all the stuff we talk about that does not have to do with the major issues we discuss. An image of a painting you admire could be the starting off point. You could also have some permanat threads for deeper discussions on general issues like the economy, Palestine, Iraq, etc., and have some threads for comments on daily news items.
ReplyDeleteThese are just a few things that come to mind-and I know they involve more time than you may have for this blog. But this blog is a great resource for Mideast news, and I have no complaints about how you run it. One thing though: I notice you seem annoyed that some of us don't read the entire article you may link to. Please don't be offended by that. In my case I have very limited time to do in depth research on anything these days. Part of the function of a blog is for you to do the reading so we don't have to. In my case I just don't have time to read everything I want to.
Thanks Joe for the suggestions. I'll have to look into them and see how I can practically use them..
ReplyDeleteAs for reading the articles I agree it's way too much time consuming and myself I don't do that systematically, but scan them and try to get the essence. By the way, I wasn't annoyed at all. I was just wondering if the similarities between the two large scale events escaped your attention.
I am called a fence sitter here at home. I am indifferent. What ever the majority of Puerto Ricans want, that is what I am for.
ReplyDeleteAt the time of his death, my father (a historian of our region, and Puerto Rico in particular) believed that statehood was the only workable solution for PR because (like it or not) we had become much too integrated into the US economy to survive on our own. I think I shared his view (being an economist). However, globalization has actually widened our propsects. There are a lot more regional players as well as worldwide players with clout and burgeoning economies. I'd say we have a menu of choices we didn't have a decade ago.
I just don't see how a situation where you do not have full representation or independence would be acceptable in this day and age.
ReplyDeleteBtw, my students and I read an article about El Yunque National Forest. I was surprised to learn the land was set aside by the Spanish as a reserve as early as 1876. Looks stunning! Have you seen the Taino petroglyphs?
I certainly can't argue with you on that:
ReplyDelete<span>I just don't see how a situation where you do not have full representation or independence would be acceptable in this day and age. </span>
We've got petroglyphs all over the region. I've also seen the ones in St. John, USVI.
Jalil Sued is our local expert. We may lose him soon. Saw him at a department meeting the other day. Doesn't look good at all...