Monday, November 23, 2009

Ignorance

I often come across this argument, on online discussions (from mostly Americans) that "what the hell, Israel and the Palestinians have been fighting over this land for thousands of years and they'll fight over it forever!". This level of incredible ignorance is alarming..
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21 comments:

  1. ananNovember 23, 2009 at 5:20 PM

    One response:

    "It is true that Arabs have been fighting Arabs for 1400 years. However, this has not mostly been a fight between Jewish Arabs and Muslim Arabs;  but been a fight between Muslim Arabs and Muslim Arabs. For the most of the last 1400 years, with some notable exceptions such as South Asia and Persia, Arabs have treated their Arab Jews better than other parts of the world have treated their Jews. Especially horrendous in their treatment of Jews have been Europeans. {As an aside, the treatment of Jews remains very bad in Europe, especially Spain and Russia.}

    While Muslim Arabs fighting Muslim Arabs has been a big challenge over the last 1400 years, other parts of the world, such as Europe, have had similar challenges.

    The last bout of European civil war madness in WWII lead to the deaths of perhaps 60 million people."

    PS. saying this does not make me an anti European racist. I love Europeans too !!!!!!!!!!!!! :) 8-)

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  2. Iraqi MojoNovember 23, 2009 at 5:22 PM

    A good response, anan.

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  3. thankgodimatheistNovember 23, 2009 at 5:58 PM

    anan
    There are people, mostly Americans, who do not know that Israel is a recent creation (1948). They believe it's been always there since "biblical" times..

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  4. Iraqi MojoNovember 23, 2009 at 6:03 PM

    Kooky idea: '<span style="">In the 1920s and 1930s Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (the first Chief Rabbi of Palestine) and his son Rabbi Zevi Judah Kook saw great religious and traditional value in many of Zionism's ideals, while rejecting its anti-religious undertones. They taught that Orthodox (Torah) Judaism embraces and mandates Zionism's positive ideals, such as the ingathering of exiles, and political activity to create and maintain a Jewish political entity in the Land of Israel. In this way, Zionism serves as a bridge between Orthodox and secular Jews.'</span>

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

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  5. ananNovember 23, 2009 at 6:23 PM

    TGIA, there are many people in the world who are not sure what exactly "Jews" are. Two common question in many parts of the world are:
    1. What exactly are Jews? {Vaguely, many think they are related to Christians somehow.}
    2. Why do so many people hate Jews so much?

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  6. thankgodimatheistNovember 23, 2009 at 6:32 PM

    <span><span><span>"such as the ingathering of exiles,"</span></span> 
    -------------- 
    Until we come to understand that actually the very idea of "exiles" is wrong..See Shlomo Sands' "The Invention of the Jewish People." As it seems they left of their own will in a proselytising mission and were not forced out.. 
    The Invention of the Jewish People 
     
    http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/</span>

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  7. thankgodimatheistNovember 23, 2009 at 6:45 PM

    <span>"Why do so many people hate Jews so much?"</span>
    ---------
    anan. Talking to you is tiresome and boring..I give up.

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  8. thankgodimatheistNovember 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM

    "Thus also the evolution of the profoundly rooted myth concerning the “Exile of Jewish people” by the Romans in the first years of the first millennium. It is indeed true that specialists of Jewish antiquity knew that the Exile had never taken place, yet up to and including the present day, most ordinary Israelis are convinced that it did indeed occur – after all, it’s inscribed in the “Declaration of Independence of Israel” and even on Israeli money bills"
    Shlomo Sand

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  9. AnnNovember 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM

    Yes, I've heard this before.  "We're cousins, but we've been fighting each other for 2,000 years".  It's more than ignorance, it's a way to depict the situation as between equal parties, rather than one-sided oppression of Palestine by (mostly European) colonists.

    The question of anti-Semitism is another one I have an issue with.  It's like this hatred of Jews is on another level from the racism and discrimination people face all over the world if they are minorities or have come under oppression for whatever reason.  Europe colonized the "new world" and slaughtered the indigenous people or forced them to work, as in silver mines (that you can read about in Open Veins of Latin America by Eduardo Galleano).  Europe also enslaved Africans.  Supposed, there was/is a virtual highway of human bones at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean below where the slave ships traveled.  Arabs practices slavery too.  Christianity was used to justify slavery and genocide.  How is what Jewish people have faced, not to minimize it, worse than that?

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  10. thankgodimatheistNovember 23, 2009 at 7:08 PM

    <span>"How is what Jewish people have faced, not to minimize it, worse than that" 
    ----------- 
    Well Ann..The Zionist mind will overlook the " not to minimize it" mention and call you anti-Semitic. Though to a lesser degree than they used to.. May be it came to their attention that this slur is provoking torrents of laughs whenever raised rather than real concern..</span>

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  11. MollyNovember 23, 2009 at 7:34 PM

    Anan, where do you get that Spain is anti-semitic?

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  12. MollyNovember 23, 2009 at 7:36 PM

    Even if Muslims treated Jews better (it varied from country to country and from era to era), they still didn't treat them that great. Especially in Iran, Yemen, and Morocco.    

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  13. thankgodimatheistNovember 23, 2009 at 7:43 PM

    Molly
    Don't ask. I've answered this many times but it didn't work..If anything works that is!

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  14. AnnNovember 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM

    Okay, I accept there is a lot I don't know.  But I don't see that oppression and persecution of Jews has been worse in human history than other inhuman treatment of other people, wherever it has happened, and unfortunately history seems to be full of it. 

    I mean, we should abhor all oppression and struggle to end it, right?  It's not a contest!

    Also, there is usually a reason... not an acceptable one, but usually it's resources... Europe did not practice slavery for any reason except the massive unprecedented wealth that it brought to Europe.  I imagine one of the reasons used to rally Germans against Jews was that certain Jews were well-educated bourgeois while a lot of Germans were poor.  It doesn't stand up to reason, since some Jews were poor peasants, but since when does reason stand a chance against bigotry? 

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  15. thankgodimatheistNovember 23, 2009 at 10:55 PM

    <span>"It is true that Arabs have been fighting Arabs for 1400 years. </span>
    ------------------
    Who's crap are quoting anan? There must be some context to this..Not that you know what context means..

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  16. thankgodimatheistNovember 23, 2009 at 10:59 PM

    <span>a fight between Muslim Arabs and Muslim Arabs</span>
    -----------
    More acurately, SUNNA/SHIA fights if you cared..Why, has there never been anything similar within christianity?

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  17. Jemmy HopeNovember 24, 2009 at 11:38 AM

    The English civil war, the American civil war, the Irish civil war, the Spanish civil war, Rwanda, Burundi - why can't people get on? I blame the Arabs.

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  18. ananNovember 24, 2009 at 8:43 PM

    Reread what I wrote. I compared intra Arab fighting to intra European fighting. Agree with you regarding the Christians. {Even though I love Christians and all :) }

    It wasn't just Shia/Sunni fights. Many other fights too. Ethnic fights. Attacks against Sufis. Ottoman Turks couldn't have occupied and ruled Arabia for half a millenia without many pro Ottoman Arabs (who fought the anti Ottoman Arabs.)

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  19. ananNovember 24, 2009 at 8:46 PM

    Michael Totten has discussed Jew hatred in Spain. I have heard anecdotal horror stories from Jews about Spain and Latin America.

    I can look up some data on Spain's anti Jewish bigotry.

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  20. thankgodimatheistNovember 25, 2009 at 11:39 PM

    <span>Michael Totten has discussed Jew hatred in Spain</span>
    ------------
    I see. If shiTotten says so...
    Shit for brains..

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  21. cruelnastyandabsurdNovember 30, 2009 at 6:38 PM

    Now the once lowly Jews rule the Holy Land again,
    And it is the Palis that live in dhimmihood.and fear.
    But the Palis are slowly pulling even with the Jews in the
    World Pity Party Victimhood Competition.
       If you need a hankie to cry into.please, use mine,
    it's still dry.

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