Wednesday, May 13, 2009

I just read in Scientific American that 20% of men in the Iberian peninsula have some Jewish genes and 10% have some Moorish.
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19 comments:

  1. MoyhabinMay 13, 2009 at 10:40 AM

    This is counterintuitive, but probably true. What most people that are interested in the history of Medieval Spain fail to admit, is that the vast majority of Muslims during the Al-Andalus Kingdom,  were Iberians that had converted to Islam, and very few were of Arab or Berber descent.  On the other hand, Jewish people in Spain were a lot more effective in going underground and feigning having been converted to Christianity after 1492. So its not so strange maybe that more Spanish and Portuguese people today are of Jewish descent, and so few are of Moor ancestry, despite the seven centuries that Al-Andalus lasted.

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  2. Jemmy HopeMay 13, 2009 at 12:06 PM

    So much for "limpieza de sangre".
    Thgat's probably more Jewish genes than among the Ashkenazim of Israel.

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  3. MoyhabinMay 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM

    Very true. The statutes of "Pureza de Sangre" never really worked in Spain. For the most part they were just a pretext for plundering wealthy Jewish and Moorish families in Spain after the so-called "reconquest". Most of these families and individuals were allowed to freely migrate to colonial Latin America where they changed their last names, usually became very wealthy again, and returned to Spain to buy titles of nobility. Many aristocratic families in Spain carry Jewish and Moorish genes, althought they would murder anyone suggesting such "heresy". Actually, Torquemada, the Grand Inquisidor in Spain, was a Jew, and his tomb was desecrated and his remains burned to ashes only a few years after his death, presumably by relatives of some of his victims.

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  4. JoeMay 13, 2009 at 2:53 PM

    I guess now we know where the next group of Israeli immigrants are going to come from.

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  5. mollyMay 13, 2009 at 3:43 PM

    Not true, Jemmy.  Numerous studies have found that Ashkenazi Jews have Middle Eastern genes.  However, rare is the European Jew who even half of his genes coming from the Miiddle East.  The interesting thing is that the non ME genes are mostly on the mother's side, which means that male Jews in Europe have been marrying European women for a while.

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  6. mollyMay 13, 2009 at 3:44 PM

    I just found out that there was an inquisition in Mexico as well. 

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  7. Abu ZarnukMay 13, 2009 at 4:03 PM

    Not true at all Molly.
     
    http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/
     
    http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/09/science/y-chromosome-bears-witness-to-story-of-the-jewish-diaspora.html?scp=25&sq=jews%20dna%20ancestry&st=cse
     
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html?_r=2&scp=19&sq=jews%20dna%20common&st=cse
     

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  8. thankgodimatheistMay 13, 2009 at 4:11 PM

    I haven't checked your sources but I tend to find Scientific American as a very credible source.
    Another thing...I hope you don't mind me asking. Why the Abu, an Arabic slice of a name since we know you're Israeli?
    .

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  9. Abu ZarnukMay 13, 2009 at 4:43 PM

    I was given the name a long time ago, not many people still call me that, but it does bring back some nice memories of simpler times.
     
     
    Some Arabic has entered Hebrew slang.  Abu "something" isn't uncommonly used in nicknames. There even used to be a Meretz MK who was known as Abu.

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  10. Abu ZarnukMay 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM

    Regarding SA, I wasn't contradicting what they say - though the (high) numbers are somewhat surprising, the idea itself should come as a surprise to anybody who has even a very limited grasp of Spanish history. I was refering to Molly's assertion that Askenazi Jews have relatively few ME genes.
     

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  11. mollyMay 13, 2009 at 6:11 PM

    AZ, regarding the second article you posted, a Y chromosome marker does  not tell us what percentage of the person's DNA is ME.  It is only the mark of one's father's father's father etc.  Also, I read that info in a book by Cavalli-Sforza, one of the most prominent (if not the most) population geneticists in the world.  So, if Jews are so ME, tell me, why are there so many blonds and redheads?  The redheads are even more common among the Hasids, I notice.  

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  12. vMay 13, 2009 at 6:57 PM

    So, lets ask a clarifying question - what do genes have to do with making the claim on someone else land? ZERO, unless, of course, you harbor some mystical equally mistaken assumption of rights to property that does not belong to you.  No matter how hard you try, you cannot disconnect the current settling activity in Palestine from its illegitimate colonial roots. Just like you cannot dismiss the surrounding territories from artificial borders and the consequent tensions for foreign purposes. Which brings us to one conclusion, either you own colonialism as an acceptable practice, or you expose it as an exploitative unacceptable process.

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  13. vMay 13, 2009 at 8:31 PM

    WHAT TO CALL IT 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9G45Ny7Byw&feature=PlayList&p=B679D0879BB0CDBA&index=0
     
    NINE PART SERIES 
    http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B679D0879BB0CDBA

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  14. Abu ZarnukMay 14, 2009 at 2:15 AM

    What percentage of the genes is responsible for hair color?
     
    And why are there so many blue eyd Palestinians? :)
     
     
     

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  15. Abu ZarnukMay 14, 2009 at 2:17 AM

    in the 4th line - should be "shouldN'T come..."

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  16. mollyMay 14, 2009 at 7:26 AM

    Absolutely, V.  Being somewhere 2,000 years ago does not give one the right to evict the current owners.  

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  17. Jemmy HopeMay 14, 2009 at 11:50 AM

    Scientists, including geneticists, are for hire like any other profession. Produce the wrong results and you're out of work. Am I being cynical?
    So much contradictory data here. I'll stick to my opinions -
    i) Jew is a religious, not a racial identity.
    ii) Nobody in the the world is a pure blooded anything.
    iii) We are all, my cousins, descended from Mitochondrial Eve millions of times over, and we are all, therefore, the products of incestuous relationships (the original sin of the Christians?)

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  18. MoyhabinMay 14, 2009 at 12:57 PM

    Yes Molly, and a very ruthless one at that. In 1562, the Bishop of Landa, a Franciscan friar closely linked to the Mexican Inquisition headed by Zumárraga, organized an auto-da-fe in Mani (which means in Maya the "end of the world") tortured 4,000 Maya indians; killed approximately 600 children, women and men; destroyed 5,000 idols; and burned to ashes 4,000 books containing the entire written legacy of a 3,000 years old civilization. Books on medicine, astronomy, botany, mathematics, art, architecture, physics, theology, cosmology, geography, economy and trade, etc., disappeared forever. The greatest blow ever to our cultural heritage.  So yes, there sure was an Inquisition in Mexico, but its main goal was to destroy all indigenous civilizations, instead of persecuting Jews or Muslims.

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  19. thankgodimatheistMay 14, 2009 at 4:47 PM

    And why are there so many blue eyd Palestinians?
    -------------
    The history of the region as you know is a complex one. Many foreigners invaders or not  as in the case of the the crusaders or the Turks and many groups have mixed and intermarried with the locals. The notion of being a "pure" Arab is absurd. Within my own family we have blonds or redheads with blue and green eyes.
    .

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