Tuesday, July 28, 2009

Some things never change

My grandfather wrote this in 1935: "181 millionaires were made while the vets were being blown to bits defending their profits." and this: "26 millionaires were made last year. 16 million haven't enough food, clothing or shelter to maintain a decent standard of living."
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69 comments:

  1. MaracatuJuly 28, 2009 at 12:42 PM

    A very important issue in the face of this reality, (which I mentioned in another thread).

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  2. anandJuly 28, 2009 at 12:53 PM

    Most of the new millionaires are Asians.

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  3. r.s.July 28, 2009 at 5:36 PM

    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana;">"Make wars unprofitable and you make them impossible." - A. Philip Randolph</span>
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana;"> </span>
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana;">"War is a racket. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." - General Smedley Butler</span>
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana;"> </span>
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana;">"When the largest industry in the world is no longer War, I will accept Darwin's theory of Evolution." - Dale S. Mugford</span>
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=""> </span>

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  4. thankgodimatheistJuly 28, 2009 at 5:50 PM

    It doesn't make a difference..

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  5. thankgodimatheistJuly 28, 2009 at 5:51 PM

    I like those quotes! I'll make them a post as soon as possible..Interesting topic.

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  6. anandJuly 28, 2009 at 5:56 PM

    War isn't the largest industry in the world. In 2007, defense excluding Iraq and Afghanistan was 3% of US GDP. Including both wars the cost was 4.5% of GDP. The defense sector of the global economy isn't that important.

    PS. I am delighted that Senator McCain and Secretary Gates have ended the F22 and many other high price weapons systems. I hope they keep at it.

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  7. anandJuly 28, 2009 at 5:58 PM

    Gary Rosen says that Hamas is anti Jew:
    http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/07/what-the-west-b.php
    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

    For the record, I think Palestinians should vote for people like Barghouti rather than Hamas (who like Fatah strike me as thugs.)

    However, I am skeptical that Hamas is really as bad as some portray them as. Could some of you respond to the accusations against Hamas?

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  8. anandJuly 28, 2009 at 6:13 PM

    Why is support for Osama Bin Laden according to the July 25th global poll so much higher than in any other muslim country in the world. 52% of Palestinians had confidence in OBL. Even in Pakistan, only 18% had confidence in OBL. Pakistan and Palestine are the only two countries where OBL is more popular than Obama.

    {The only other country which was significantly pro Osama was Nigeria. But Nigeria was far more pro American than pro Osama, which suggests to me that they might not know that Osama and America are fighting each other.}

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  9. vJuly 28, 2009 at 7:07 PM

    It is amazing to me, want some real figures instead of bullshit? -

    THE COST OF EMPIRE

    <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/VIGILJ~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png"/><img src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/VIGILJ~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png"/>
    http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~jtaplin/pdf/The_Cost_of_Empire.pdf

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  10. vJuly 28, 2009 at 7:08 PM

    It is amazing to me, want some real figures instead of bullshit? - 
     
    THE COST OF EMPIRE

    http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~jtaplin/pdf/The_Cost_of_Empire.pdf

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  11. vJuly 28, 2009 at 7:11 PM

    NATIONAL PRIORITIES PROJECT


    http://www.nationalpriorities.org/

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  12. vJuly 28, 2009 at 7:12 PM

    THE COST OF WAR

    http://www.costofwar.com/

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  13. vJuly 28, 2009 at 10:38 PM

    Molly, your grandfather was absolutely right

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  14. thankgodimatheistJuly 28, 2009 at 11:19 PM

    It's not about individuals Asians or else. It's about a system!

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  15. r.s.July 29, 2009 at 3:23 AM

    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">“All wars are fought for money.” - Socrates</span>
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> 
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">“The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same.” – Marie Beyle</span>
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> 
    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">“War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.” - George Orwell</span>

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  16. r.s.July 29, 2009 at 4:55 AM

    A lot has changed since 1935, but the underlying motivations for US wars have not.

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  17. Jemmy HopeJuly 29, 2009 at 5:50 AM

    Usama bin Ladin is dead, Anand, but his demon may return to haunt you.
    If the word got out then the money spent on fighting al-Qa'ida would dry up. It's in a lot of people's interest to prop the corpse up, like that of El Cid Campeador, and pretend he's still a threat.

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  18. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 5:58 AM

    Wonderful links, y'all!

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  19. flemingJuly 29, 2009 at 6:03 AM

    You do realize the US didnt invent war, right?  Humans have been warring for thousands of years.  The reasons are almost always the same: Religion/Culture/Limited Precious Resources.  If you think that's going to be different at some point, perhaps next you want to plead with the lions of the sahara not to kill baby giraffes or get dogs to stop chasing squirrels.  LOL Do you really think if the US vanished into thin air that wars would cease?  I would hope you have a greater grasp of the world than that.

    Look, I can understand that when your personal interests are in conflict with the USA's, how discouraging that might be.  With the immense economic and military might of the US - along with western worldwide cultural hegemony - I can see how you must find that terribly frustrating and maddening.  But you have to realize that its not going to change signficantly any time soon.  Im sorry if that is hard for you to accept. 

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  20. r.s.July 29, 2009 at 6:16 AM

    <p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">Who are the major benefactors of the trillions of dollars being made from these wars? We presume the poor US soldier fighting for his life in the awful bloodbath in Iraq or Afghanistan will not suddenly make his fortune. He will return from the war just as poor, if not much poorer, as he went into it. The only ones richer will be the men behind the scenes, the “elitist” owners of politically-connected corporations and the weapons manufactures and bankers, who make good business out of patriotism and build their capitalist towers atop mountains of soldiers’ corpses. </span>

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  21. vJuly 29, 2009 at 6:53 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/v/hJ5Tp97UgyQ

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  22. flemingJuly 29, 2009 at 6:53 AM

    These sound like good talking points for an alqueda video RS.  Ah yes, tell our soldiers how they are being abused by the wealthy elite, blah blah blah. 

    For one, its a volunteer military.  Anyone who joins does so knowing full well what they may be asked to do.  Second, many here in the US are not motivated by monetary awards.  Could be adventure, a desire to serve their country, or just a lack of direction in life.  Whatever the reason, people have their own reasons and we are grateful for their service.

    r.s., I have known many a US veteran of our wars in Afghan and Iraq and none would be swayed by your silly argument.  Everyone knows its not about an individual or two but the entire system we are protecting.  People like yourself who demean their service, sacrifice and loyalty are either ignored or considered enemy agents. I suspect you may be the latter? :)  

    People in america can still get rich.  Many soldiers have returned from service with greater job prospects than when they left due to training, education and maturity.  The US will always require some of its sons and daughters to sacrifice for its continued growth.  Sad but true.  However there have always been those willing to do so for the purpose of a greater good, and there always will be.  You will do no good making such arguments here in the US.

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  23. DancingOpossumJuly 29, 2009 at 7:10 AM

    Wow, fleming is a whole walking collection of unproven half-truths, wishful thinking, and muddled mythology wrapped up in a smug little flag, isn't he?

    Just to correct a few things:

    "With the immense economic and military might of the US"

    Yes, such immense economic might that we're in a steadily deepening depression and one of the worst healthcare systems in the world (even Cuba beats us silly on this one), with a "military might" stretched so thin we've taken to scraping the lowest rungs of the barrel for cannon fodder.

    Your vaunted "volunteer army" is  having to take in people it would have rejected back when it was actually functioning at top quality -- you know, like Lyddie England, that fine young lady with the intellectual and moral power of a wooden hammer, and that fine young man who raped and murdered a teenage girl in Baghdad, and who incidentally had undergone a series of treatments for psychiatric illnesses and considered unfit for military service before the war machine decided, hey what's the worst that could happen? (Oh, he also murdered that girl's parents and her infant sister, and he and his buddies laughed about it afterwards.)

    Many soldiers have returned from service with greater job prospects than when they left due to training, education and maturity. 

    HAHAHA, that would be funny if it were not so tragically untrue. First off, nobody can find a good job in this economy. Second, returning soldiers are far more likely to be engaged mental breakdowns, suicide, and ongoing physical therapy to learn how to function without arms, eyes, or parts of their heads.

    I guess you haven't kept up with the figures for homelessness, bankruptcy, and divorce among returning soldiers, or muc of anything else.

    The US will always require some of its sons and daughters to sacrifice for its continued growth.

    Wow, how noble of them to sacrifice for the sake of your wet dreams. Have you sent your own children off to die, fleming? For that matter, why don't you enlist, or re-enlist? The military is taking pretty much anyone with a pulse these days, so don't lie and say you wouldn't qualify. Why don't you make this noble sacrifice you seem all too happy to ask of others?

    But I guess it's OK because after all, they are mostly poor people and if they didn't have the good sense to become rich, like anybody can in America, then they better just shut up and get their heads blown off? 

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  24. flemingJuly 29, 2009 at 7:59 AM

    Dancing O,

    Talk about half truths.  Your points are all straight from the pages of the liberal media.  Pure bunk. 

    I PERSONALLY know many soldiers who have returned from Iraq/Agfh.  They were not profiled on CNN becuase they are happy, successful, hard working, well adjusted, employed and mentally healthy.  They dont make for good news stories.  You should try and get a little more of your information from the real world instead of relying on the internet or media sources who need to publish "interesting" stories.

    I also know several people who sons/daughters have entered the military academies.  They are from realtively wealthy or "good" families.  You know, kind of like Joe Biden's son who is serving in Iraq. 

    My wet dreams are none of your business and dont involve anyone dying, so please do suggest it. LOL  No one goes into the army with the idea of being the sacrifice, but we all know it will and can happen.  I dont like it, and no one does, but its a fact of life.   Just like someone willl die on the highway today.  We cant all stop driving because of it.

    The US healthcare system is under duress but its far better than you claim.  Cuba is an economic joke, pathetic. Its been dying slowly for 60 years.  Every chance one of their great baseball players gets they defect to the USA.  Gee, I never hear of any of our baseball players defecting to Cuba.  Wonder why??  :)  

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  25. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 8:40 AM

    Wingnuts seem to be regressing.

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  26. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 8:43 AM

    Downfall of empire.

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  27. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 8:45 AM

    Wingnut talking points.

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  28. flemingJuly 29, 2009 at 9:02 AM

    You arent really linking to the daily Kos with the idea they are anything other than uber liberal / hate america-firsters, are you?  I mean, really,  Worse bunch of tripe I have read in years.  Sounds like one of them BELIEVES Glenn Beck should be TAKEN off the air by the "powers that be" rather than letting his economic success determine his future.  I suppose freedom of speech is only for people who have the "right" left opinions LOL

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  29. vJuly 29, 2009 at 9:24 AM

    Flemings "it is inevitable, we have to keep killing for an elite, it is the choice we cannot help but make" bullshit, your full of it.

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  30. r.s.July 29, 2009 at 9:39 AM

    WHY...DO...THEY ALWAYS SEND THE POOR?!?! Great track V!

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  31. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 9:48 AM

    The real America haters.

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  32. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 9:51 AM

    The real America hater.

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  33. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 9:56 AM

    The real America hater.

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  34. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 10:05 AM

     Very worthy sacrifices from the US point of view, I'm sure:

    Head of Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, too, forwarded a message of congratulations to the Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on holding fair presidential elections during which Ahmadinejad was re-elected as Iran’s President.

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  35. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 10:07 AM

    In the name of everything reasonable, and in the face of acts of evil by terrible people, we tortured wantonly and profligately, and some of these torture techniques -- known to the previous administration and most of the media as "enhanced interrogation techniques" -- were actually demonstrated to an array of top officials, including the national security adviser, the attorney general, and the secretary of state, within the White House. We imprisoned secretly at "black sites" offshore and beyond the reach of the American legal system, holding prisoners without hope of trial or, often, release; we disappeared people; we murderedstrange acts of extreme abuse and humiliation; we kidnapped terror suspects off the global streets and turned some of them over to some of the worst people who ran the worst dungeons and torture chambers on the planet. Unknown, but not insignificant numbers of those kidnapped, abused, tortured, imprisoned, and/or murdered were actually innocent of any crimes against us. prisoners; we committed

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  36. vJuly 29, 2009 at 10:08 AM

    While we are on the subject of some things never changing. CNN highlights larger banks swallowing up smaller institutions, as if it is supposed to be a "healthy" issue - less finance diversification! I mean, anything that helps those "poor" big banks has to be good...right -

    PROFITING FROM BANK FAILURES

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/29/news/economy/failed.banks.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009072912

    oh joy

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  37. vJuly 29, 2009 at 10:15 AM

    THE BEGINNING OF THE FINANCIAL COLLAPSE 03/14/08

    http://notinhisname.blogdrive.com/archive/cm-04_cy-2008_m-03_d-14_y-2008_o-0.html

    In the beginning of all major financial collapses, you see the institutions devouring one another.  What you need to be aware of is which ones are going down, and if a foundational player is about to collapse, get your money fast. Thus we see the precipitous fall of Bear Stearns, who is interwoven into the multi-trillion dollar derivatives contracts, and if they fall, well - so goes the system. 
     
    In comes Morgan to the rescue with a financial deal, but as it is announced Bear Stearns shares lose 50% to an 11 year low.  During Friday's session they lost another 38%, going from as high as $159.00 per share down to $26.85, opening this week at $69.75.  With "rumors" of a liquidity squeeze, no one any longer wants to provide financing.

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  38. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 10:25 AM

    Oh no.  Of course not.

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  39. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 10:30 AM

    Ad Hominen

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  40. vJuly 29, 2009 at 10:47 AM

    FAIRY TALES CAN COME TRUE, IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3rzUVAHVd4

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  41. anandJuly 29, 2009 at 12:01 PM

    I wonder if Jemmy is one of those who celebrates when another Pakistani Shia mosque blows up.

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  42. anandJuly 29, 2009 at 12:03 PM

    That makes no sense. War is bad for business. This is why the business community opposes violence and favors stability.

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  43. anandJuly 29, 2009 at 12:04 PM

    What exactly is your problem with Hakim? So what if he is a friend of Khamenei?

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  44. MaracatuJuly 29, 2009 at 2:48 PM

    I have no problem at all.  I am addressing the tyypical anti-Iran Republican talking points, that's all.

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  45. vJuly 29, 2009 at 3:54 PM

    Oh, does Lockheed Martin and General Electric oppose violence? Who would have known...(imbecile)

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  46. anandJuly 29, 2009 at 3:55 PM

    Some Americans are not informed about Iraq. OK, more than some! ;)

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  47. vJuly 29, 2009 at 3:55 PM

    "Ah yes, tell our soldiers how they are being abused by the wealthy elite, blah blah blah." fleming

    I do

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  48. vJuly 29, 2009 at 3:56 PM

    "...hate america-firsters..." LOL

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  49. r.s.July 29, 2009 at 5:30 PM

    (imbecile)

    Understatement of the year.

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  50. thankgodimatheistJuly 29, 2009 at 5:47 PM

    You do realize the US didnt invent war, right? Humans have been warring for thousands of years.
    -------
    Personally I didn't know that!!!!Thanks for the information..

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  51. thankgodimatheistJuly 29, 2009 at 5:49 PM

    fleming
    Which country today is the most engaged in wars...Did it occur to you that this is what Mara was saying?

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  52. thankgodimatheistJuly 29, 2009 at 5:55 PM

    stretched so thin we've taken to scraping the lowest rungs of the barrel for cannon fodder.
    -------
    Thanks for the good English DO...I learned something today..

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  53. thankgodimatheistJuly 29, 2009 at 6:00 PM

    Cuba is an economic joke, pathetic.
    -------------
    fleming
    DO didn't say Cuba is an economic super power but has a great health care system which beats that of the US!. On the contrary, what she's inferring is that EVEN Cuba hasa better health care system!!
    Why put words in people's mouths?

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  54. thankgodimatheistJuly 29, 2009 at 6:01 PM

    This is surreal!! I can't believe it!!

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  55. vJuly 29, 2009 at 6:09 PM

    The above is not a prediction, it is reality

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  56. anandJuly 30, 2009 at 2:39 AM

    TGIA, how many Americans want war? The international business community opposes wars because they lead to instability.

    Most of the conflicts and wars around the world relate to Takfiri extremists fighting for their creed. However in most of the world the traditional muslim majority is beating the Takfiris. This is why Osama Bin Laden is so unpopular around the muslim world (with the sole exception of one country . . . Palestine.)

    You can say "war" is bad. What is your strategy for how all of us (7 billion of us) can work together collaboratively to alleviate the Takfiri threat?

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  57. anandJuly 30, 2009 at 2:41 AM

    r.s. you are not an imbicile. Just unfamiliar with the way the world works.

    Stability, security, low organized and ordinary crime are strongly correlated with economic growth (technological innovation and living standards.) This is why the global business community generally favors stability and predictibility.

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  58. anandJuly 30, 2009 at 2:46 AM

    TGIA, Cuba's health care system is pretty bad. However, Cuba also spends less than one twenthieth as much on health care per person compared to America.

    Cuba's health care is extremely good for how little they spend. Perhaps it has the best health care in the world relative to how much it spends on health care. But on an absolute basis; Cuban health care isn't good . . . however you dice it.

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  59. anandJuly 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM

    Mara, are you aware of any torture commited by the US government after 2004?

    The Bush administration retained the right to torture, but to my knowledge didn't actually torture people after 2004.

    The total number of people on whom torture was authorized was very few. Many other countries around the world do far worse. This said, America conducts Extraordinary rendition--this is when America extradites people to other countries that do torture.

    Examples of this include the IP (Iraqi Police) that have tortured. For that matter there are allegations against the ANP (Afghan National Police) that they torture too. As you probably know Mara, ISAF and the ANA (Afghan National Army) cannot detain or imprison Afghans. Only the ANP can. The ANP can be rough.

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  60. flemingJuly 30, 2009 at 7:15 AM

    I think it depends how you measure it.  As a percent of their popuation, many nations in Africa are 1,000 times more "engage" in war than the US.

    The only reason we are in Iraq and Afghan is because of 9/11.  Obviously, all the claims of oil expropriation in Iraq were false, as we have not taken ownership of their oil assets.  Afghan is nothing but rocks and dirt and poppy fields.  Zero economic value.  We are there because of the potential of more 9/11 type actions, but with WMDs.  Laugh it off if you want, but 9/11 happened and no one considered such a thing realistic before. 

    Look, some companies have benefitted from the war activity, but that was not the reason behind.  When you go to war you need the implements, and thus its inevitable that those companies who produce them will profit.  Not evil, not collusion, just what happens. 

    When the world learns how to behave itself we will put away our weapons. 

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  61. DancingOpossumJuly 30, 2009 at 10:01 AM

    "I PERSONALLY know many soldiers who have returned from Iraq/Agfh."

    So what? The plural of anecdote is not data.

    And you haven't answered the question of why your children are not enlisting for the glorious sacrifice of dying to ensure KBR's profit. Or yourself. Why not? I suspect you are a chickenhawk like most neocons, a proud member of the Fighting Keyboard Brigade.

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  62. anandJuly 30, 2009 at 10:27 AM

    "When the world learns how to behave itself we will put away our weapons." Extremely offensive statement. The world isn't the problem. The small minority of muslims, Takfiris, are.

    Don't forget that the vast majority of people killed by Takfiri are not American. Don't forget the tens of thousands of Pakistanis (not all of them Shia) killed by AQ linked networks.

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  63. Jemmy HopeJuly 30, 2009 at 12:09 PM

    That is an offensive remark, defender of child slavery: defender of the indiscriminate killing of Pakistanis by drones; defender of the war criminals of the Israeli armed forces.

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  64. flemingJuly 30, 2009 at 12:15 PM

    If you take offense Anand that is on you. Deal with it.

    Are you dismissing the threat presented by N Korea?  The russians?  Iran? Various other miscreants? 

    The USA is the only country with the worldwide firepower (ie ten or so nuclear powered aircraft carriers) to keep tabs on all the bad guys.

    The BIGGEST threat is actually from stateless actors that are supported by rogue states.  WMDs in the hands of those who dont have allegiance to a particular country make it very difficult to defend against and deter, as there are no "clear targets" for counter attacking.  Thus why we have to maintain vigilance.  

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  65. flemingJuly 30, 2009 at 12:17 PM

    V says: I do

    Do they laugh in your face v, or are they polite enough to wait until you leave?

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  66. flemingJuly 30, 2009 at 12:27 PM

    This is a familiar and lame argument DO. 

    I also cheer for the local pro football team.  Its a violent sport, but I cant play at that level.  Does that make me a pro sports "chicken hawk"  as well?  LOL

    Every war requires some to do the actual fighting, others continue the business activity at home in order that the financial wherewithal is maintained to prosecute until victory.

    Sure, sure its all about that most evil of goals: "PROFIT" Oh horrors!  LOL 

    Who said my children arent engaged in a military career?  I support them no matter what path they choose.  I certianly cant dictate what it should be (we are not a third world country where fathers can do such things, remember??))

    To suggest that Iraq is all about KBR is to have the critical/analytical capacity of a stale doughnut.  Surely you dont really believe the tripe you write?  I mean its so untterly brainless and devoid of any true thought.   I would hope that you can one day see beyond your incredibly banal sentiments and cast some light on what is a truly darkened and unused corner of your brain.

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  67. anandJuly 30, 2009 at 2:13 PM

    North Korea represents a large global threat, hense the way Japan, US, South Korea and China are working together to contain it.

    In any war, South Korea and Japan would smash North Korea in days, even without US help. However, US help means that far fewer South Korean and Japanese civilians would die in the first few days. {Maybe millions fewer since North Korea would likely nuke Japanese and South Korean population centers.}

    North Korea is a good example of the international community working together to manage a dangerous global threat. So far this has been managed without a war. {See TGIA. The world and America has managed North Korea without a war for 56 years.}

    Flemming, I don't think Russians pose a real security threat to anyone other than maybe the Georgians and Ukraine. Russia has no ambitions outside the former soviet republics, and even there Russian ambitions are limited. I take a far more sanguine view on Russia than you Fleming. I think the world should work closely with Russia to defeat the global Takfiri threat, especially in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    On Iran, you might have a partial point. This said, Takfiri Salafi Sunni extremism is far more dangerous than Shia  extremists. I favor Obama trying to form an alliance with Iran to fight AQ linked networks (including by helping the ANSF and Pakistani Army against the Taliban.)

    In general Fleming, the only wars America is engaged in are against Takfiri. To a lesser degree the GoI and ISF, backed by the US, are fighting a partial war against Iranian proxies. More importantly, America seems to be backing Harriri, Lebanese Sunni Arabs, Druse, and Christians against Hezbollah. That might count as a proxy war against Iran. America is also friends with Israel that is fighting a proxy war with Iran via Hamas.

    On the whole, I think America should:
    -back the GoI to the hilt in whatever they do to Iran and Iranian proxies
    -reach out of Hamas to form an alliance against AQ. Helping Palestinians isn't a bad idea either.
    -reach out to Hezbollah and Amal. See what is possible.

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  68. vJuly 30, 2009 at 2:23 PM

    "Sure, sure its all about that most evil of goals: "PROFIT" Oh horrors!  LOL " fleming

    let's be specific - profit for the FEW. It is sort of bizzare how you laugh about the deaths of millions of people.

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  69. flemingJuly 30, 2009 at 5:11 PM

    <span style="">tgia said "Personally I didn't know that!!!!Thanks for the information.."</span>
    <span style=""> </span>
    <span style="">Your retort suggests you failed did not understand that I was making a saracastic comment/question.  Why?  It was quite obvious. </span>

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