By Jonathan Cook
21 July, 2009
Countercurrents.org
"In an interview this month with the Calcalist, an Israeli business newspaper, Mr Shturman, the deputy director of the ministry’s hasbara department, admitted his team would be working undercover.
“Our people will not say: ‘Hello, I am from the hasbara department of the Israeli foreign ministry and I want to tell you the following.’ Nor will they necessarily identify themselves as Israelis,” he said. “They will speak as net-surfers and as citizens, and will write responses that will look personal but will be based on a prepared list of messages that the foreign ministry developed.”
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A nation founded on deception and deceit!
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<h3 class="UIIntentionalStory_Message"><span> </span>"The new team is expected to increase the ministry’s close coordination with a private advocacy group, giyus.org (Give Israel Your United Support). About 50,000 activists are reported to have downloaded a programme called Megaphone that sends an alert to their computers when an article critical of Israel is published. They are then supposed to bombard the site with comments supporting Israel."</h3>
ReplyDelete<div class="js-singleCommentText"><span> </span>"The new team is expected to increase the ministry’s close coordination with a private advocacy group, giyus.org (Give Israel Your United Support). About 50,000 activists are reported to have downloaded a programme called Megaphone that sends an alert to their computers when an article critical of Israel is published. They are then supposed to bombard the site with comments supporting Israel."</div>
ReplyDelete<span> </span>"The new team is expected to increase the ministry’s close coordination with a private advocacy group, giyus.org (Give Israel Your United Support). About 50,000 activists are reported to have downloaded a programme called Megaphone that sends an alert to their computers when an article critical of Israel is published. They are then supposed to bombard the site with comments supporting Israel."
ReplyDelete"The new team is expected to increase the ministry’s close coordination with a private advocacy group, giyus.org (Give Israel Your United Support). About 50,000 activists are reported to have downloaded a programme called Megaphone that sends an alert to their computers when an article critical of Israel is published. They are then supposed to bombard the site with comments supporting Israel."
ReplyDelete"The new team is expected to increase the ministry’s close coordination with a private advocacy group, giyus.org (Give Israel Your United Support). About 50,000 activists are reported to have downloaded a programme called Megaphone that sends an alert to their computers when an article critical of Israel is published. They are then supposed to bombard the site with comments supporting Israel."
ReplyDeleteDo any countries other than Israel do this?
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely Anand, but none have the longest running brutal, murderous occupation in modern history
ReplyDeleteV, no need to exxagerate. There have been many far worse occupations in over 6,000 years of human history. Weren't the Ottoman half millenia occupation, and the 19 year Egyptian and Jordanian occupations pretty harsh too? The Mongols, Seljic Turks (Timur e Lane), Byzantine and other occupations were pretty harsh too.
ReplyDeleteThe wingnuts had a little racket going on in twitter during the Honduras crisis. It occurs to me that in order to consistently dedicate so much time to these little schemes, either:
ReplyDeletea) the involved are students on Summer break, or
b) there is money exchanging hands.
and the 19 year Egyptian and Jordanian occupations pretty harsh too?
ReplyDelete-------------
Excuse me?!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where did you get this rubbish from?? This is a filthy, totally untrue Israeli propaganda line? How on earth could you put in one sentence the Israeli occupation with the Egyptian and Jordanian "occupation" which both were mere administrations!!! I understand you know little about those matters but it's not a reason to keep bringing this obscene and totally ridiculous hasbara line!
Anand
ReplyDeleteIt's time you get some facts right about this issue!! I don't care what they say on Totten's blog but I'm not prepared to sit down here and read revolting rubbish of this kind...Go back to the sources about the alleged occupation (by Egypt and Jordan) and give us facts and statistics. Otherwise it's nothing by propagating filthy propaganda, something I'm not ready to tolerate!
Listen you little fucking twit (anand), I said MODERN HISTORY. Now if you want to run that 6000 years back, that is your own fucking stupidity that you have displayed AGAIN (!) for all to see.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I invite you to go back to the longevity of life post again, where I had you your fetid ass about China in regard to both "housing and healthcare." Which just proves one thing again coupled with this post - you do not know shit, you have no idea what is going on in the world, you are a laughing staock and a fucking joke. You should check in to a mental hospital for your own safety.
For example: Show us facts about:
ReplyDeleteEgyptian/ Jordanian land theft. Settlements. Apartheid walls. Checkpoints with the design of subjugating and humiliating the indigenous population. Prisoners rotting in Egyptian/Jordanian jails. Ethnic cleansing by replacing the Palestinians by Egyptian/Jordanian nationals.Etc....
FACTS!!!!
For example: Show us facts about:
ReplyDeleteEgyptian/ Jordanian land theft. Settlements. Apartheid walls. Checkpoints with the design of subjugating and humiliating the indigenous population. Prisoners rotting in Egyptian/Jordanian jails. Ethnic cleansing by replacing the Palestinians by Egyptian/Jordanian nationals.Etc....
FACTS!!!!
Without facts and statistics about what you just uttered otherwise your comment will be deleted! You caught me on a very bad day!
Than again I might be wrong, you are probably locked away in your dad's house, in a highchair with an overall bib on. Where a well paid maid wipes the dribble from your mouth. The only freedom that you have is your laptop wisely nailed to your highchair, where you are unleashed incessantly upon an unsuspecting world with your astounding ignorance and your insufferable hubris! LOL
ReplyDeleteFor example: Show us facts about:
ReplyDeleteEgyptian/ Jordanian land and water theft. Settlements and colonies. Apartheid walls and "security" barriers. Checkpoints with the design of subjugating and humiliating the indigenous population. Egyptians/ Jordanians roads only. Tousands of Palestinian prisoners rotting in Egyptian/Jordanian jails. Ethnic and cultural cleansing by replacing the Palestinians by Egyptian/Jordanian nationals and wiping out their heritage and cultural footprint....Etc....
FACTS!!!!
Without facts and statistics about what you just uttered otherwise your comment will be deleted! You caught me on a very bad day!
For example: Show us facts about:
ReplyDeleteEgyptian/ Jordanian land and water theft. Settlements and colonies. Apartheid walls and "security" barriers. Checkpoints with the design of subjugating and humiliating the indigenous population. Egyptians/ Jordanians roads only. Tousands of Palestinian prisoners rotting in Egyptian/Jordanian jails. Ethnic and cultural cleansing by replacing the Palestinians by Egyptian/Jordanian nationals and wiping out their heritage and cultural footprint. Home invasions on a daily basis. Wars of aggression on a daily basis.....Etc....
FACTS!!!!
Without facts and statistics about what you just uttered otherwise your comment will be deleted! You caught me on a very bad day!
For example: Show us facts about:
ReplyDeleteEgyptian/ Jordanian land and water theft. Settlements and colonies. Apartheid walls and "security" barriers. Checkpoints with the design of subjugating and humiliating the indigenous population. Egyptians/ Jordanians roads only. Tousands of Palestinian prisoners rotting in Egyptian/Jordanian jails. Ethnic and cultural cleansing by replacing the Palestinians by Egyptian/Jordanian nationals and wiping out their heritage and cultural footprint. Home invasions on a daily basis. Wars of aggression on a daily basis.....Etc....
FACTS!!!!
Without facts and statistics about what you just uttered your comment will be deleted! You caught me on a very bad day!
Listen you little fucking twit (anand), I said MODERN HISTORY.
ReplyDelete-----------
I've noticed that often anand only reads half a sentence berfore he comments. Sigh!
I said MODERN HISTORY.
ReplyDelete-----------
I've noticed that often anand only reads half a sentence berfore he comments. Sigh!
What about Lithuania?
ReplyDelete1993 Soviet troops withdrew from Lithuania.
1991 Lithuania became a member of the United Nations.
1990 On March 11 the Restoration of the Independence of the Republic of Lithuania was declared.
1944 – 1953 The armed resistance movement took place in the forests of Lithuania. It was an attempt to top Soviet occupation, forced collectivization, massive persecutions and deportations of the Lithuanian population. 250 000 Lithuanian citizens were deported to Siberia starting in 1940.
1944 The Republic of Lithuania was re-occupied by Soviet Union and became the Soviet Socialist Republic of Lithuania.
1941-1944 Lithuania was occupied by Nazi Germany, with 94 % of the Lithuanian Jewish population exterminated.
1940 The Soviet Union occupied and annexed the Republic of Lithuania.
http://www.li.lt/index.php?page=lithuania&language=en&id=166
What about Tibet?
ReplyDeleteOver 1.2 million Tibetans have died as a direct result of the Chinese invasion and occupation of Tibet.
http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/white5.html
Your going to bring up the short duration of WW2 vza?!! Even if you talk about Lithuania it does not even come close to the track record and implcations of the Palestinian situation, nor under the sam consecutive armed forces. Tibet not of the same duration and questionable pedigree of the "rulers," what a stretch. Go sit in a highchair next to Anand - but you get no maid to wipe your dribble. LOL
ReplyDeleteI really am curious about this since v and others have said the "the longest running, most bruta,l and murderous occupation in modern history"
ReplyDeleteIs that true? Which year is used to begin, 1948 or 1967?
I really am curious about this since v and others have said the "the longest running, most brutal and murderous occupation in modern history"
ReplyDeleteIs that true? Which year is used to begin, 1948 or 1967?
Short?????? Look again, v. Soviet troops left in 1993!
ReplyDeleteWhat about Latvia? Estonia?
THAT is NOT an answer! Facts, sir, nothing but the facts.
ReplyDeleteThanks for giving up so easily vza, when the facts are evident
ReplyDelete1948
ReplyDeleteDon't be silly!
ReplyDeleteI jusr googled around and that is not the impression I am getting. Palestinianns are usually referring to the West Bank and Gaza as the Occupied Territories, so that would be 1967. For those who do not beleive Israel has a right to exist at all, I guess the year would be 1948.
ReplyDeleteHmmmmm.
Actually the trouble started before that, when colonialism decided to make the Palestinian people for what the Europens did - I place it back to the mandate period
ReplyDeleteOh, and guess what? This methodology did not have and still does not have, no matter who employs it where - or what era, any validity
ReplyDeleteso that would be 1967.
ReplyDelete------------
Oh, that's nice!!
I' beg to differ! You wqould not meet ONE single Palestinian who would not put the date of the occupation at 1948! Please!!
hmmmmmm
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrIFVJEwR3Y
For those who do not beleive Israel has a right to exist at all, I guess the year would be 1948. so that would be 1967.
ReplyDelete------------
Oh, that's nice!!
Linking the two is very astute but unfortunately deceptive!!
You would not meet ONE single Palestinian, ( those who would accept that Israel has a right to exist) who would not put the date of the occupation at 1948!
Please!!
She thinks that it was right for colonial powers to put their hand in the Palestinians pocket to pay for what they were responsibile for doing. She also feels the same way about the indigenous genocide in the Americas - we know where you are coming from vza, colonial supremacist
ReplyDeleteFor those who do not beleive Israel has a right to exist at all, I guess the year would be 1948. so that would be 1967.
ReplyDelete------------
Oh, that's nice!!
Linking the two is very astute but unfortunately deceptive!!
You would not meet ONE single Palestinian, even when they accept Israel's right to exist, who would not put the date of the occupation at 1948! How do you call the dispossession and the expulsion of the indigenous population independently of whether Israel has a right to exist or not?Does it change anything to their fate if you decide that the name occupation doesn't apply?..Please!
I guess I'm getting sick and tired of this whole rubbish and better take a little break!
ReplyDeleteIsrael has exists, but it has NO right to exist in its current form. They are presently commiting a genocide on the Palestinian people, and they have just as much "right" to do that as the Nazis did.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0htAOCUsbI
They also have NO right to exist as an Apartheid state, or just as much "right" to do so as South Africa did.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLb2MAulfg
I'll make my self very clear here! ALL ALL ALL Palestine is occupied but for the sake of a settlement, a solution AND peace, a majority among the Palestinians have accepted Israel's right to exist! Real politik is a factor as well!
ReplyDeleteAnd it will never be a reality as long as Israel keeps on its present course, it can exist - but not in its present form.
ReplyDeleteThis is what vza reduces to every time there is no answer, goes back to the original fallacious premise that has been overturned. Anand make a silly cheer. Fleming whines...
ReplyDeleteThat's your answer to everything.... colonial, neo-colonial, colonial supremacist, blah, blah, blah.
ReplyDeleteSHE does not give a hoot what YOU think. You have a stock answer for everything, straight out of the Little Anarchists Handbook. Go look in the mirror and tell yourself how wonderful it is to be so superior.
"If you are sick and tired of the rubbish..." vza finally speaks the truth about her position(s). lol
ReplyDeleteYou have no tolerance for anything less than 100 percent agreement!
ReplyDelete--------------
I think I'd be satisfied with 30%! Seriously!!
When I hear anand say for the 100th time that The Egyptian and Jordanian "occupation" of Palestine are equally harsh to the Israeli occupation, and after I PATIENTLY explained as many times the reality of what took place when Egypt and Jordan were in charge then I feel that nothing cuts it, nothing will do and all our efforts to state simple, basic facts stae fruitless and not worth it any more..Because it's all in the mind, doctor!! That's the rubbish I referred to. As for the 1948/1967 argument I already wrote above what I believe is my understading...
You have no tolerance for anything less than 100 percent agreement!
ReplyDelete--------------
I think I'd be satisfied with 30%! Seriously!!
When I hear anand say for the 100th time that The Egyptian and Jordanian "occupation" of Palestine are equally harsh to the Israeli occupation, and after I PATIENTLY explained as many times the reality of what took place when Egypt and Jordan were in charge then I feel that nothing cuts it, nothing will do and all our efforts to state simple, basic facts stae fruitless and not worth it any more..Because it's all in the mind, doctor!! That's the rubbish I referred to. As for the 1948/1967 argument I already wrote above what I believe is my understading...
The Palestinians call the West Bank the "occupied territories" because that's the LEGAL( international law) denomination. Israel is not because it's condoned by the UN and internationl law...Does that cancel facts and events of actual real occupation which included disspossion, expulsion and to a large degree, ethnic cleansing? You tell me the answer please!
You have no tolerance for anything less than 100 percent agreement!
ReplyDelete--------------
I think I'd be satisfied with 30%! Seriously!!
When I hear anand say for the 100th time that The Egyptian and Jordanian "occupation" of Palestine are equally harsh to the Israeli occupation, and after I PATIENTLY explained as many times the reality of what took place when Egypt and Jordan were in charge then I feel that nothing cuts it, nothing will do and all our efforts to state simple, basic facts stae fruitless and not worth it any more..Because it's all in the mind, doctor!! That's the rubbish I referred to. As for the 1948/1967 argument I already wrote above what I believe is my understading...
The Palestinians call the West Bank the "occupied territories" because that's the LEGAL( international law) denomination. Israel is not because it's condoned by the UN and internationl law...Does that cancel facts and events of actual real occupation which included disspossion, expulsion and to a large degree, ethnic cleansing? You tell me the answer please!
You have no tolerance for anything less than 100 percent agreement!
ReplyDelete--------------
I think, seriously, I'd be satisfied with 30%!
When I hear anand say for the 100th time that The Egyptian and Jordanian "occupation" of Palestine are equally harsh to the Israeli occupation, and after I PATIENTLY explained as many times the reality of what took place when Egypt and Jordan were in charge then I feel that nothing cuts it, nothing will do and all our efforts to state simple, basic facts stae fruitless and not worth it any more..Because it's all in the mind, doctor!! That's the rubbish I referred to. As for the 1948/1967 argument I already wrote above what I believe is my understading...
The Palestinians call the West Bank the "occupied territories" because that's the LEGAL( international law) denomination. Israel is not because it's condoned by the UN and internationl law...Does that cancel facts and events of actual real occupation which included disspossion, expulsion and to a large degree, ethnic cleansing? You tell me the answer please!
Totally agree. It's present form is an abnormality. But as I said before, whatever the Palestinians agree to, I do. I'm not in the business of being more royalist than the king! They know better.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree. Its present form is an abnormality. But as I said before, whatever the Palestinians agree to, I do. I'm not in the business of being more royalist than the king! They know better.
ReplyDeleteI think, seriously, I'd be satisfied with 30%!
ReplyDelete-----------
Satisfied with 30%, happy with 50%. :)
I think, seriously, I'd be satisfied with 30%!
ReplyDelete-----------
Satisfied with 30%, happy with 50%. :)
Satisfied with 30%, happy with 50%.
ReplyDelete..................................................
Well,I can't complain about that!
So the occupation is 61 years long if one starts at 1948... but Israel was not occupying all of Palestine in 1948.
42 years long if one begins with 1967.
V says it was the most brutal. I don't know about that. After reading what the Lithuanians and Tibetans went through,.....
Btw, I am just looking at this and asking these questions from a historical perspective. V's statement about it being the longest, most brutal and murderous occupation in modern history piqued my curiosity about occupations in the past. I would not be so insensitive as to ask these same questions of a Palestinian.
ReplyDeletevza: V talks about the "indiginous" population of the US frequently (see above). Shouldnt the settlement of the USA be considered by him to be the "longest, most brutal and murderous occupation in modern history"?
ReplyDeleteCome on V, show your mettle: demand the return of land in the US to its "rightful owners"!! PS: Good luck!
...the Bush-Cheney-Yoo-Armitage gutting of US conformance with the Geneva Conventions really makes it difficult for Washington credibly to complain about the treatment of any of our captured soldiers. The Taliban could hold the soldier hostage forever if they follow the principle put forward by Sen. Lindsey Graham. They could (God forbid) put him in stress positions naked and threaten to release the pictures to his family, and they would have done nothing that Rumsfeld's Pentagon had not done routinely and on a vast scale.
ReplyDeleteOh, I have smartass...this nation was built upon the backs and blood to two peoples, the indigenous population and th transatlantic slave trade. I have not stopped asking for reparations for both. Anyone who can make a statement like this, has obviously not followed what I have said here an on my own blog. So if you are going to make statements like this, at least address the reality of what I have already written.
ReplyDelete(Guest was me) So which is it V? Is the US or Palestine the longest running and most brutal murderous occupation? There can only be one "winner" you know... :)
ReplyDeleteAlso Ward/V, reparations are different than demanding land be returned.
Regardless, it AINT NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Not here, not there. Not unless you and your ilk take it with force. So demand your ass off. And really, best of luck with the whole global insurrection/toppling of the world order thing. You are going to need it. LOL
Yes, we all know how concerned the Taliban are about the Geneva Conventions.
ReplyDeleteThey could and frequently do behead their prisoners, too.
Have you also demanded reparations from the Arabs for their involvement in the Slave Trade?
ReplyDeleteMara, I challenge you to find any evidence that the US uniformed military has used torture since early 2004.
ReplyDeleteThe allegations about torture are against the CIA and other agencies rather than the uniformed US military. Torture violates the US army field manual. Any order to torture would be treated as an illegal order by the uniformed military.
Where is the Red Cross? The Taliban are violating the Geneva Conventions. Prisoners may not be used for propaganda purposes. They may not be humiliated.
ReplyDeleteIn a video released by the Taliban at the weekend the captured soldier, named by the <span>Pentagon</span> as private Bowe Bergdahl, 23, said he was scared and missed his family.
Prompted by his captors, he said Americans had "the power to make our government bring them (troops) home."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090721/ts_nm/us_afghanistan_taliban_soldier
Nice to know you think we should aspire to the same level of behavior as the Taliban, and no better. It's important to have standards. Even really crappy ones.
ReplyDeleteThey "frequently" behead their prisoners? How often is "frequently"? What are the numbers? And since we're playing the matchy-matchy game, how does it compare to, say, the frequency with which we torture our prisoners of the Great and Holy War on Terra? Since moral equivalency seems to be the whole point, you know, so let's equivalate (not a real word, I know 8-) )
Oh and fleming:
best of luck with the whole global insurrection/toppling of the world order thing. You are going to need it.
Actually, the world including the U.S. is doing a pretty damn fine job of imploding itself without any help from outside agitators. We're at over 10 % unemployment (that's official figures, which means the real figure is closer to 15%) with no, zero zip nada zilch sign of improvement for the foreseeable future, our banks have to be propped up by the government intervention that your ilk claims to find so hateful and incompetent, we're mired in two unwinnable and illegal wars that are bleeding us dry of bodies and money, we have a president who's a pure sellout to corporate interests (of course, being a Republican you probably, secretly, love that -- when you're not calling him a Bolshevik, right-wingers are easily confused sometimes), and our environment is turning toxic and killing us all.
So I don't think "luck" is necessary at this point.
In North Africa? Yes
ReplyDeleteIn the contest for "most brutal occupation," I don't think we can define any one as the most obvious choice. England's treatment of the Irish was horrifying and the Khmer Rouge's treatment of their own people was ghastly. Indeed, the U.S. occupation of Iraq is pretty hard to top.
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli occupation does have certain characteristics that render it a special case, though. The use of clearly genocidal tactics is one, especially for its ongoing nature. The Khmer Rouge employed genocide too, for example, but were only in power for four years, and the Bosnian genocide similarly lasted only a few years. Israel has perfected a form of "slow genocide" that it has managed to sustain for 60 years, with the help of occasional forays of widespread death-dealing like the assault of Gaza. The brilliant part of this, for Israel, is that it can engage in what's clearly genocide in a manner that lets its Big Sister, the U.S., avert her ladylike eyes and keep handing over money. Too bad the rest of the world isn't taken in and clearly calls it what it is.
Than the USA should be held to the same standards
ReplyDeleteWell fleming, there are more ways under the sun to accomplish what I am espousing. In the meantime i will drag white supremacy and its proponents through the dirt as I please, there is plenty of dirt
ReplyDeleteAs far as Ward is concerned he has been vindicated to the trash talking and actions of the white hegemony board of so-called "educators." When he is walking the halls of academia again, or his bank account is full...whichever
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely.
ReplyDeleteAnd since we're playing the matchy-matchy game, how does it compare to, say, the frequency with which we torture our prisoners of the Great and Holy War on Terra?
ReplyDeleteUnbelievable.
Dancing O you must be great at parties :) Woe is me, the world is coming to an end, everything is terrible blah blah blah. Do you get out much? Everywhere I go life is going on as usual. People are golfing, going to movies, eating out, travelling, etc. The world has always had its fair share of "the world is coming to an end" types. You are clearly one. Thus far they have ALL BEEN WRONG.
ReplyDeleteThe "rest of the world" sees Israel for what it is huh? Gee whiz Dancing O, the US, with 300 million people, is only about .5% of world population. What in heavens is stopping the 99.5% of the rest of the world???? Are they all cowards? Or are your numbers off? It can only be one or the other (or both).
Oh indeed, we right wingers are easily confused and cursed with lower IQs than you lefties. Surely you have stats to back that claim up? Gosh sure sounds like you are prejudiced against us "slower" types, you big meanie smartie. LOL
Unwinnable wars? Tell me how Iraq is unwinnable. We have had over 100k troops living there for +8 years in all ares of the country. The origianl Iraqi armed forces dispersed in mere days after our troops entered in force. We have since been building their own armed forces back up. You need to get a clue about what is going on in Iraq. The war is already won. The insuregency has been quelled. We are in the process of withdrawing MOST of our forces, as we always intended.
Afghanistan is nothing but dirt, rocks and poppy seeds. Only reason we bother is so islamic terrorists dont set up shop there again. But the bad guys are now on the run in both Afghan and Pakistan. The taliban/AQ dont dare take on the US in a major battle. They would be utterly obliterated. Did you get that Dancing O: Utterly obliterated. Try and deny it.
With a stateless/invisible enemy like the Talib/Awq the only way to KNOW you have won is to kill every last human being in the area, as there is no entity with whom to "make peace". We have decided not to kill everyone, at least at this point. Pray we dont change our minds.
<span style="">Life expectancies are at the highest in the history of the world. The globe is connected like never before with the internet. Diseases are being beaten back every day by fantastic new drugs. We know more about our origins and our place in the universe than at any time in human history. There is some hope for the millions of extreme poor in india and china. New technologies are coming on board that will allow us to more efficiently make use of this amazing planet. The human race has never had a brighter future than it does right now. Really Dancing O, you need some perspective. Look back at history. Show us some other period in human history when nirvana was the order of the day. Let me guess: The reign of the Caliphate. HAHAHAH</span>
ReplyDeleteInteresting. Need to do more research. My understanding is that many Arabs and Jews moved to Palestine in the early 1900s. How many Jordanian settlers moved to the West Bank during the Jordanian occupation/administration?
ReplyDeleteEgypt and Jordan did arrest many Palestinians during their administrations and abused Palestinians, much as they mistreated their own people.
Here is a question:
-where there Apartheid walls before the 1987 Intifada?
-where there Israeli citizen only roads before the 1987 intifada? (don't know the answer)
The segregated roads:
- can Palestinian Israeli citizens (23% of all Israelis) drive them? I believe the answer is yes. So the roads are segregated on the basis of citizenship rather than on the basis of ethnicity.
Flemming has a point. Life expectancy in India has risen from 30 years to 70 years. China is approaching US levels.
ReplyDeleteI am concerned that technological innovation isn't fast enough; but it is still happening.
For example, we now have a cell phone chip (ARM Cortex A9) that comes with 4 powerful parralel processing CPUs and multiple GPUs. All this with very little power usage (hense the fact that it powers a "cell phone.") This would have been a supercomputer back 20 years ago. Intel is developing a system on chip Medfield (X86) chip to compete with the ARM chips in the first half of 2011.
Cost of goods sold per watt in solar is approaching $1. There are many other examples of rapid innovation across many industries.
All of these forces are increasing real incomes for the very poor.
Iraq was indeed a success!
ReplyDeleteMarch 21, 2008 —
In the approach to the five-year anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, senior officials from the two most important allies of the new Iraqi government visited Baghdad to mark the occasion. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was greeted by his Iraqi counterparts with all the elaborate pomp and circumstance associated a state visit, the first by an Iranian leader in 30 years and the first of any regional leader since the 2003 invasion. Two weeks later, U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney also made his way to Baghdad. However, despite his infamous pre-war prediction that U.S. forces would be greeted with “sweets and flowers,” security conditions forced him to travel under a blanket of secrecy, on a plane carrying a specially reinforced trailer for his sleeping accommodations in a country where 155,000 American troops patrol.
TEHRAN, July 16, 2009 (UPI) --
Iran and Iraq signed two memorandums of understanding regarding the management of joint oil fields and bilateral energy issues following three days of talks.
Bis interimitur qui suis armis perit
Mara, good relations between Iran and Iraq is a good thing. I hope they grow closer.
ReplyDeleteWell, if over a million Tibetans died, that would have to be more brutal. But this is like arguing which was worse the Holocaust or transatlantic slavery. Why does it matter, they are both beyond words.
ReplyDeleteYes, Anand, but the Jews on the West Bank are citizens, the Palestinians are not. Hmm, I wonder why.
ReplyDeleteAnand, they were ordered to torture before and the field manual didn't stop them then.
ReplyDeleteNeed to do more research.
ReplyDelete---------------
OH, yes!
"My understanding is that many Arabs and Jews moved to Palestine in the early 1900s."
------------
Arabs moved to Palestine???!! Why? Who were the people living there before? Martians?
"How many Jordanian settlers moved to the West Bank during the Jordanian occupation/administration? "
--------------
Oh, I don't know, maybe a dog, a stray cat, a lost donkey did effectively move to the West Bank but I don't think "Jordanian settlers" did!!
Ok, I'm too tired for all this nonesense. IU really am. Please do your own research since whatever I'm going to say is going to fall on deaf ears anyway! Not that I haven't tried before!I tried...
Hmm, most brutal occupation. The Nazi occupation of Europe! Hello. Oh, wait, I just said we shouldn't be arguing about this. But it's pretty obvious to anyone who can count, that they killed the most people, not just Jews. I mean count the number of Christian Poles alone and you have probably topped many others.
ReplyDeleteNeed to do more research.
ReplyDelete---------------
OH, yes!
"My understanding is that many Arabs and Jews moved to Palestine in the early 1900s."
------------
Arabs moved to Palestine???!! Why? Who were the people living there before? Martians?
"How many Jordanian settlers moved to the West Bank during the Jordanian occupation/administration? "
--------------
Oh, I don't know, maybe a dog, a stray cat, a lost donkey did effectively move to the West Bank but I don't think "Jordanian settlers" did!!
Ok, I'm too tired for all this nonesense. I really AM. Please do your own research since whatever I'm going to say is going to fall on deaf ears anyway! Not that I haven't tried before!
But you are not Palestinian, tgia. Maybe it would take more to satisfy them.
ReplyDelete"Great success," over a million people dead - fuck you; puppet government - oh joy; no future - watch and see, and I mean America
ReplyDeleteConsider the prominence of these views. Four of the first seven Federalist Papers offer, as a prime reason for the founding of the United States, the belief that, by doing so, America will more easily avert the infection of the multiple wars that have desolated Europe. This was the implicit consensus of the founders. Not only Jay and Hamilton, but also George Washington in his Farewell Address, and James Madison and Benjamin Franklin, and John Adams as well as John Quincy Adams. It was so much part of the idealism that swept the country in the 1780s that Thomas Paine could allude to the sentiment in a passing sentence of The Rights of Man. Paine there asserted what Jay and Hamilton in the Federalist Papers took for granted: "Europe is too thickly planted with kingdoms to be long at peace." Have we now grown too used to the employment of our army, navy, and air force to be long at peace, or even to contemplate peace? To speak of a perpetual war against "threats" beyond the horizon, as the Bush Pentagon did, and now the Obama Pentagon does, is to evade the question whether any of the wars is, properly speaking, a war of self-defense.
ReplyDeleteQui cupit aut metuit, servus est.
I have been trying to research Palestine; but different scholars state disagree with each other.
ReplyDeleteThere was substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine before 1948. The exact number is subject to disagreement. Part of the reason why so many Arabs moved to Palestine, is that there was rapid economic growth in Palestine during the British mandate compared to other Arab nations (or regions.)
Here is one estimate of Palestine's population trends:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
From 1896 on, Jeruselem was a majority Jewish city. However, Jews were a minority in greater Jeruselem (<span><span style="font-family: Arial;">52,000 out of 132,000 persons in 1931.)</span></span>
I haven't been able to obtain estimates of Jordanian immigration into Palestine between 1948 and 1967; and Palestinian immigration into Jordan between 1948 and 1967. Will need to do more research.
Molly, how many of the 1.5 million Palestinians who happen to be Israeli citizens live in or regularly visit the West Bank? I suspect a good many; although I need to do more research on this subject.
I was sent this presentation by the Israeli government about the West Bank economy (which appears to be improving.) I still need to review it:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Deputy_Foreign_Minister/Speeches/Dep-FM-Ayalon-on-measures-to-ease-restrictions-on-the-Palestinian-population-08-Jul-2009.htm
Molly
ReplyDeleteYou haven't been following.
vza said:
"You have no tolerance for anything less than 100 percent agreement!"
I said I'd be satisfied with 30%...agreement. Nothing to do with the land here. It's not mine!!
The allegations about torture are against the CIA and other agencies rather than the uniformed US military.
ReplyDelete---------------
Allegations, huh?!!! Nothing cuts it with you! Never!
Molly
ReplyDeleteYou haven't been following.
vza said:
"You have no tolerance for anything less than 100 percent agreement!"
I said I'd be satisfied with 30% agreement....with MY views! Nothing to do with the land here.
Molly, is there any evidence that the US uniformed military ordered torture throught the chain of command? The question is very specific.
ReplyDeleteAt Abu Garraib, to this day Lt. General Sanchez insists that:
1) he never authorized torture
2) the people who tortured at Abu Gurraib were not under his command and control.
Note the second point carefully. Other agencies were brought in to torture. The commanding Brigadier General at Abu Gurraib was ordered through her chain of command to allow other agencies to interregate the prisoners. {She was demoted and removed from the military because of the scandal.} She never authorized torture from personel under her chain of command, she still insists.
What Cheney did (it appears that Cheney was acting without specific orders from the President) was trying to organize torture through the CIA and other agencies. If you will remember the Senate voted 90 (out of 100) at McCain's and Powell's urging to insist that the army field manual had to be upheld at all times. Supporters of torture also agreed that torture couldn't be committed by the uniformed US military.
I very strongly disagree with Cheney. So do many other Americans including GIs, Powell, Rice, McCain, Obama and Hillary.
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana;">"When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that DO." - William Blake </span>
ReplyDelete<p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold;">"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." - Edward Said </span>
ReplyDelete"V's statement about it being the longest, most brutal and murderous occupation in modern history..."
ReplyDeleteYou know vza, you think your relly smart, but you are NOT - I never said it was the "most" brutal, like a good little hasbara puppet you added the qualifier. Here is what I said -
"Absolutely Anand, but none have the longest running brutal, murderous occupation in modern history" 5:31 - 55
Tell Camera you fucked up
Hmm Molly, maybe you should read WHAT I said, instead of repeating vza's hasbara points -
ReplyDeleteNEVER said it was the "most" brutal - read it again
"Absolutely Anand, but none have the longest running brutal, murderous occupation in modern history" 5:31:55
So, either quote the material properly, or go back and get instructions from vza's camera handler
Anand, you are a lying sack of shit, along with fleming - either read and deny what WHO says about China and India and life expectency, or shut up - that goes for both of you imbeciles. Look at "who" is living longer jackasses, there is no equality in the system(s) under these regimes - a small handful live longer, the rest are cut off and dying by more, and different reasons in the blessed "free market."
ReplyDeleteIts an AVERAGE v. By definition that means basically half live longer, half live shorter. You do know how an average is calculated, dont you? :)
ReplyDeleteSo unless you have specific stats to show that some "elite few" is lviing to such long ages it can skew the reults in a country of 1 billion.....
No, I suggest you look at the specifics of the WHO report in both India and China - it does not support what you are saying. Plus, it is ACCESS to these "wonder drugs and advanced mediacal proceedures" that is the question, not their existence. You can "average" on a false premise all you want fleming, it does not make it legitimate.
ReplyDeleteIm sorry V, I dont speak gobblygook.
ReplyDeleteAverages cant be skewed by a few when it comes to life expectancies for a country of 1 billion. That isnt in any report, its common sense.
Access to wonder drugs and procedures is NOT a right. its a privelege. You need to understand that just because I create something doesnt mean everyone else gets to have it. Ask tgia if he gives his art away if someone cant afford it. The world's resources are limited and must be rationed. You may find that cruel, but its not. It is just the way things always have been, and always will be.
When you figure out a way to make it so that no one has more than anyone else, thus ensuring "fairness" is mandated around the globe, do let us know. FYI, fairy lands dont exist. Not to mention your kind of fairyland where its impossible to excel because its not "fair" to others sounds like the purest hell I could ever imagine.
You are right, v you did not say the most. Thanks for pointing that out. I do apologize. Why on earth didn't you notice that when we were having the discussion at the time?
ReplyDeleteI won't be telling Camera anything. Until you accused me of this once before, I had never even heard of it. Unlike you, I am not well versed in all of the bricks and bats that both sides use to pummel each other.
Beheading prisoners, suicide bombings, throwing acid on schoolgirls, bombing from the skies, collateral killings from fighting and drone inflicted civilian casualties. It is all the same to me. A curse on both houses (including the one you continually defend!). Shame!
ReplyDeleteYou are right, v you did not say the most. Thanks for pointing that out. ( In your usual gracious manner!) I do apologize. Why on earth didn't you notice that when we were having the discussion at the time?
ReplyDeleteI won't be telling Camera anything. Until you accused me of this once before, I had never even heard of it. Unlike you, I am not well versed in all of the bricks and bats that both sides use to pummel each other.
You are right, v you did not say the most. Thanks for pointing that out. (In your usual gracious manner!) I do apologize. Why on earth didn't you notice that when we were having the discussion at the time?
ReplyDeleteI won't be telling Camera anything. Until you accused me of this once before, I had never even heard of it. Unlike you, I am not well versed in all of the bricks and bats that both sides use to pummel each other.
ANAND HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN BRAINWASHED BY THE ZIONIST REVISIONARY HISTORY OF PALESTINE. HE COULD ALSO BE A HASBARA AGENT.....
ReplyDeleteAS LONG AS THE NATIVE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN DENIED RIGHTS TO THEIR HOMELAND, WHY SHOULD THE ISRAELIS THAT CAME FROM JEWISH POPULATIONS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST ON THE PALESTINIAN HOMELANDS VZA?
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing is an unfair, tragic mess for sure, guest. I just read that the Jews owned little more than 6 percent of the land in Palestine before the establishment of Israel. It seems to me that one democratic state for all the people would have been the logical and fair choice.
ReplyDeleteBut Israel DOES exist. Whether or not it should seems to me a futile argument. It does exist..and what is to be done?
I did not know you were a boxer :)
ReplyDelete"Access to wonder drugs and procedures is NOT a right." That may be the status quo, but it still does not anwer the WHO calculations. Give it a rest. Out of 191 nations China is 181, as an example.
ReplyDeleteFairness in not an issue, because it is not in the vocabulary of the present world order - not because "that is how life is." Also, "Excel" my ass -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hdt87rhgSc
Fair is letting people find their natural level of income or success without govt intervention. Life aint fair V. Get over it. Is it fair I dont date super models or play centerfield for the yankees? No. Does that mean Im being humiliated or that I am a slave to the elite interests? LOL
ReplyDelete"Fairness" is code for: "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." The end of the advancement of the human race, in other words. You will assurredly get your chaos then. Death and destruction on a scale which would make WWII seem like a schoolboy snowball fight.
Oh, I almost forgot, that's what you want. Silly me.
If you have good arguments, don't you think you can do both?
ReplyDeleteWith that type of response here is the response you deserve:
ReplyDeleteI will share my supermodels with you ;)
Here is the thing, V. No one who has supermodels shares them. Thus, my point proven. :)
ReplyDeleteMara, all civilian deaths are tragic. The Taliban and their allies kill 3 times as many civilians as the pro Government of Afghanistan forces (including ISAF.)
ReplyDeleteDo Taliban have the legal right to attack an elected Afghan government and its ANSF? How about the tens of thousands of Taliban fighters (or their allies such as Haqqani and Hekmatyur) who are not Afghan?
Not always! A case in point is fleming. He stated it very clearly and upfront. "You'll never convice me" was the gem!..
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, I believe, it could work with open minded , intelligent and somehow undecided folk.
While we are on "proven points," here is WHO's assessment of the United States -
ReplyDeleteEXPLAINING U.S. HEALTH RANKING
http://www.zmag.org/blog/view/3480
Some highlights -
<span>The first statistic under "Attainment of Goals", level of health, means that 23 other countries have a population that lives longer</span>
<span>The health distribution means that 31 other countries have that longevity distributed more equally</span>
<span>53 other countries more fairly contribute to the financing of their health care system.</span>
<span>Dozens of other countries live longer, provide better services and are more fair but we spend more. We are good at responding... to those who can afford it.</span>
:-D
ReplyDeleteTell us, oh "open minded, intelligent and somehow undecided one", when were YOU last convinced to change YOUR mind from a previously held position (about something of signifigance)? Afterall, if one touts open mindedness, then surely one can provide lots of evidence where they themselves displayed it!
ReplyDeleteHurry, Im holding my breath!
Sorry, tgia.
ReplyDeleteSorry, V.
ReplyDelete