The Left and Islam
"As tragic as it may sound to some, we are not as free as we believe ourselves to be. We are not exactly the author of most of our thoughts and realizations. Our human conditions are imposed on us; we are a product of our culture, language ideological indoctrination and in many cases, victims of our intellectual laziness. Like the semi-fictional American female activist above, in most cases we are trapped within our preconceived ideas and that stops us from seeing things for what they really are. Accordingly, we tend to interpret and in most cases misinterpret remote cultures employing our own value system and moral code."
(Counterpunch, thanks v)
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<span style="">Solidarity with Palestine is a very good opportunity to review the gravity of the situation. As it happens, in spite of the murderous Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, solidarity with Palestinians has yet to become a mass movement. It may well never make it as such a movement. Given the West's failure to uphold the rights of the oppressed, Palestinians seem to have learned their lesson, they democratically elected an Islamic party that promised them resistance. Interestingly enough, very few leftists were there to support the Palestinian people and their democratic choice.</span>
ReplyDelete<span style="">Within the current template of conditional political solidarity, we are losing campaigners on each turn of this bumpy road. The reasons are as follows. </span>
<blockquote>
<span style="">1. The Palestinian liberation movement is basically a national liberation movement. This acknowledgment is where we lose all the Left cosmopolitans, those who oppose nationalism.</span>
<span style="">2. Due to the political rise of Hamas, Palestinian resistance is now regarded as Islamic resistance. This is where we are losing the secularists and rabid atheists who oppose religion, catapulting them to being PEP (progressive except on Palestine). </span>
</blockquote>
<span>"Solidarity with Palestine is a very good opportunity to review the gravity of the situation. As it happens, in spite of the murderous Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, solidarity with Palestinians has yet to become a mass movement. It may well never make it as such a movement. Given the West's failure to uphold the rights of the oppressed, Palestinians seem to have learned their lesson, they democratically elected an Islamic party that promised them resistance. Interestingly enough, very few leftists were there to support the Palestinian people and their democratic choice.</span>
ReplyDelete<span>Within the current template of conditional political solidarity, we are losing campaigners on each turn of this bumpy road. The reasons are as follows. </span>
<blockquote>
<span>1. The Palestinian liberation movement is basically a national liberation movement. This acknowledgment is where we lose all the Left cosmopolitans, those who oppose nationalism.</span>
<span>2. Due to the political rise of Hamas, Palestinian resistance is now regarded as Islamic resistance. This is where we are losing the secularists and rabid atheists who oppose religion, catapulting them to being PEP (progressive except on Palestine)." </span>
original link - Counterpunch
ReplyDeletehttp://www.counterpunch.org/atzmon07102009.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3744516,00.html
ReplyDeleteIsrael to pay internet trolls.
Good article Molly :)
ReplyDelete<span style="">"Rather than loving ourselves through the Palestinians and at their expense, we need to accept Palestinians for what they are and support them for who they are regardless of our own views on things. This is the only real form of solidarity. It aims at ethical rather than ideological conformity. It puts humanity at its very centre. It reflects on Marx’s deep understanding of religion as the “sigh of the oppressed”. If we claim to be compassionate about people we better learn to love them for what they are rather than what we expect them to be."</span>
ReplyDeleteAwww, we haven't been giving followers of Hamas and Hezbollah enough unconditional love?
Oh I see. So when the boys from Hamas arrest a Gazan woman journalist for laughing out loud on the beach, and not covering her hair in the water, rough up her two male friends and detain them, we are supposed to love them for what they are? When they throw their Fatah rivals off buildings and shoot them in the head as they lie wounded on a hospital stretcher, we should stop loving ourselves and love them? When the local nutjobs known as the Islamic Sword of Whatever attack a Christian school and steal or destroy all of their equipment, we must, in effect, prove our solidarity by smiling and saying, "No matter what you do brother, we respect where you are coming from?" When a young woman is MURDERED by the self-appointed local guardians of Islamic behaviour because she committed the unpardonable sin of walking with her fiancee' (And her sister as chaperone!) it is more ethical for all of us to understand that these guys were merely acting out the sigh of the oppressed ? What about her sighs as she lay dying? Oh, silly me, I thought we were talking about human rights here. Evidently, we are to only care when Israeils deny human rights to Palestinians. But when Palestinians deny their fellow Palestinians human rights we must show compassion to the abusers...and keep that money rolling in, of course!
<span>Atzmon: "Rather than loving ourselves through the Palestinians and at their expense, we need to accept Palestinians for what they are and support them for who they are regardless of our own views on things. This is the only real form of solidarity. It aims at ethical rather than ideological conformity. It puts humanity at its very centre. It reflects on Marx’s deep understanding of religion as the “sigh of the oppressed”. If we claim to be compassionate about people we better learn to love them for what they are rather than what we expect them to be."</span>
ReplyDeleteAwww, we haven't been giving followers of Hamas and Hezbollah enough unconditional love?
Oh I see. So when the boys from Hamas arrest a Gazan woman journalist for laughing out loud on the beach and not covering her hair in the water, rough up her two male friends and detain them, we are supposed to love them for what they are? When they throw their Fatah rivals off buildings and shoot them in the head as they lie wounded on a hospital stretcher, we should stop loving ourselves and love them? When the local nutjobs known as the Islamic Sword of Whatever attack a Christian school and steal or destroy all of their equipment, we must, in effect, prove our solidarity by smiling and saying, "No matter what you do brothers, we respect where you are coming from?" When a young woman is MURDERED by the self-appointed local guardians of Islamic behaviour because she committed the unpardonable sin of walking with her fiancee' (And her sister as chaperone!) it is more ethical for all of us to understand that these guys were merely acting out the sigh of the oppressed ? What about her sighs as she lay dying?!!! Oh, silly me, I thought we were talking about human rights here. Evidently, we are to only care when Israeils deny human rights to Palestinians. But when Palestinians deny their fellow Palestinians human rights we must show compassion to the abusers...and keep that money rolling in, of course!
<span>Atzmon: "Rather than loving ourselves through the Palestinians and at their expense, we need to accept Palestinians for what they are and support them for who they are regardless of our own views on things. This is the only real form of solidarity. It aims at ethical rather than ideological conformity. It puts humanity at its very centre. It reflects on Marx’s deep understanding of religion as the “sigh of the oppressed”. If we claim to be compassionate about people we better learn to love them for what they are rather than what we expect them to be."</span>
ReplyDeleteAwww, we haven't been giving followers of Hamas and Hezbollah enough unconditional love?
Oh I see. So when the boys from Hamas arrest a Gazan woman journalist for laughing out loud on the beach and not covering her hair in the water, rough up her two male friends and detain them, we are supposed to love them for what they are? When they throw their Fatah rivals off buildings and shoot them in the head as they lie wounded on a hospital stretcher, we should stop loving ourselves and love them? When the local nutjobs known as the Islamic Sword of Whatever attack a Christian school and steal or destroy all of their equipment, we must, in effect, prove our solidarity by smiling and saying, "No matter what you do brothers, we respect where you are coming from?" When a young woman is MURDERED by the self-appointed local guardians of Islamic behaviour because she committed the unpardonable sin of walking with her fiancee' (And her sister as chaperone!) it is more ethical for all of us to understand that these guys were merely acting out the sigh of the oppressed ? What about her sighs as she lay dying?!!! Oh, silly me, I thought we were talking about human rights here. Evidently, we are to care only when Israelis deny human rights to Palestinians. But when Palestinians deny their fellow Palestinians human rights we must show compassion to the abusers...and keep that money rolling in, of course!
Oh not really vza, no one denies that you should not care about these issues. However, they will no longer be used as a divisive means to not supporting the Palestinians as they are - period. That is, everything from the war on terror, to the the "inferior" and flawed line regarding rule, culture, and all of the little excuses for holding back unconditional support are moot. Your "superiority" is no excuse to not free Palestine, as the overarching all comsuming goal.
ReplyDeleteHowever, that does not just apply to you, but to everyone who tries to use whatever means as a tool to divide.
ReplyDeleteDo you know what I find the most offensive about groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and the other dangerous religious loons? Their people are already suffering the restrictions imposed on them by the Israelis and these bastards impose even more on them! Penned up in the Gaza Strip as they are, ANY Gazan should be able to walk on the beach with friends, laugh for the sheer joy of it, and swim in the sea, hair covered or uncovered, wiithout interference from a bunch of sexist thugs whose manhood depends on controlling women.
ReplyDeleteTGIA, I think you should add the link to the post. I'm going to have to read this carefully before I respond.
ReplyDeleteYeah, we know what your trying to say vza, and it still does not invalidate their worthiness of equality as a people and freedom.
ReplyDeleteAs'ad told me a that we really can't trust any of that stuff because it might be Fatah propaganda, vza.
ReplyDeleteWho said it did?
ReplyDeleteReally? I am sure there is some of that from both sides.
ReplyDeleteI do think it's funny that counterpunch posted this article immediately after the Atzmon one. http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann07102009.html
ReplyDeleteMaybe, but you never hear about anything bad that Fatah, does, do you?
ReplyDeleteI do, I have read about them beating up people, widespread corruption, and claims that some who have been detained by them have been tortured.
ReplyDeleteI would not want to live under either bunch.
Sometimes reading it "carefully" does not do us any good...lol That is because we "read" into it what we chose, or improperly parse it because we have a wild hair up our ass :)
ReplyDeleteYes, and ONLY you cn find the connection between the two articles when there is no mention of anything remotely close to Atzmon's article with Neumann's...lollolol
ReplyDeleteThey both have their faults and both print propaganda, just like this country is riddled with faults and runs a propaganda machine 24 hours a day 7 days a week...lol
ReplyDeleteOf course, I have to admit you do not see much about Fatah, that is because what they do truthfully told is bad enough :)
ReplyDeleteDon't let a link to the post stop you Molly, I posted the link in the second comment above - "read" it for yourself. lol Yu know, the one where you posted an alternate artticle right under. Plus, I know the Neumann article was a lot easier to fing on Counterpunch than the Atzmon one, right? ;) I swear you do this to yourslf, you must be a masochist...hehe
ReplyDeleteDon't let a link to the post stop you Molly, I posted the link in the second comment above - "read" it for yourself. lol You know, the one where you posted an alternate article right under. Plus, I know the Neumann article was a lot easier to find on Counterpunch than the Atzmon one, right? ;) I swear you do this to yourslf, you must be a masochist...hehe
ReplyDeleteWell they're thinking that maybe no one, or few want to do it for free forever. Which explains the signicant fall in the level of enthusiasm...
ReplyDeleteThanks Molly, I'll make a post later..
ReplyDeleteWell they're thinking that maybe few want to do it for free forever. Which explains the signicant fall in the level of enthusiasm which only money may buy after all...
Done Molly.
ReplyDeleteDone Molly. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you talking about, V? I never said I couldn't find the article, just that he should add it to the post. Jeez.
ReplyDeleteV, I feel sorry for you if you do not see a connection between the two articles.
ReplyDeleteAtzmon: The notion of political Islam is a western delusion, it is simply Islam in action. Me: This is silly, because as many observers have pointed out(inc. Said, on the same website http://www.counterpunch.org/saidattacks.html), there is no "Islam", but many Islams. In other words, there are many interpretations of it (as there are all religions) and who is to say which is the correct one.
ReplyDeletePerhaps he is writing more of European attitudes towards Hamas in pro-Palestinian circles than of American. Anyway, the left's coldness toward Hamas may be more a revulsion toward the targeting of civilians than that of Islamophobia.
ReplyDeleteaww
ReplyDeleteI don't know if Nahida Izzat's charge against the left is true, but, if so, I would also condemn them.
ReplyDelete<span style="font-family: Times; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 4px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 4px;">
ReplyDelete<span style="">Atzmon: If we want to help the Palestinians, the Iraqis and the other millions of victims of Western imperialism we really must stop for a second, take a big breath and start again from scratch.</span>
Atzmon: <span style="font-family: Verdana; ">Rather than loving ourselves through the suffering of others, which is the ultimate form of self-loving, we better for the first time, exercise the notion of real empathy. </span>
<div><span style="font-family: Verdana; ">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Verdana; ">The above statements are meaningless. </span></div>
</span>
<span style="">
ReplyDelete<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; line-height: 120%;"><span style="">So even if Hamas lose control of the strip, the Left Cosmopolitans won’t be pleased because they don’t like Nationalism either. These must be the Left Sectarians that Tariq Ali mentioned in his great speech posted below.</span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; line-height: 120%;">
</span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; line-height: 120%;">
Do you mean?
ReplyDelete<span style="">"In both Islam and Judaism there is hardly a separation between the spiritual and the civil."</span>
"...<span style="">both the Liberal and the Left ideologies are lacking the necessary theoretical means to understand the complexities of Islam and Judaism."</span>
<span style="">"Since both Islam and Judaism are more than just religions, they convey a ‘way of life’ and stand as a totally thorough answer to questions regarding being in the world..."</span>
<span style=""> "The notion of political Islam (Islamism) may as well be a Western delusional reading of Islam." [NOTE]</span>
<span style="">"The Palestinian solidarity campaigner found it too difficult to cope with the Islamic unity of body and soul. The Left in general is doomed to fail here unless it elaborates by means of listening to the organic Islamic bond between the ‘material’ and the so called ‘opium of the masses’. For the Leftist to do so, it is no less than a major intellectual shift."</span>
Than you must agree with Atzmon, because he never said anything about a "political Islam." Like I said, you have REAL problems, or, you cannot or will not read what this man has written - totally dishonest.
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; line-height: 120%;"><span style="">So even if Hamas lose control of the Strip, the Left Cosmopolitans won’t be pleased because they don’t like Nationalism either. These must be the Left Sectarians that Tariq Ali was referring to in his great speech posted below.</span>
ReplyDelete<span style="">btw the popularity of Hamas in the Strip is at an all time low according to recent polls. </span>
ReplyDeleteDo you mean?
ReplyDelete<span>"In both Islam and Judaism there is hardly a separation between the spiritual and the civil."</span>
"...<span>both the Liberal and the Left ideologies are lacking the necessary theoretical means to understand the complexities of Islam and Judaism."</span>
<span>"Since both Islam and Judaism are more than just religions, they convey a ‘way of life’ and stand as a totally thorough answer to questions regarding being in the world..."</span>
<span> "The notion of political Islam (Islamism) may as well be a Western delusional reading of Islam." [NOTE]</span>
<span>"The Palestinian solidarity campaigner found it too difficult to cope with the Islamic unity of body and soul. The Left in general is doomed to fail here unless it elaborates by means of listening to the organic Islamic bond between the ‘material’ and the so called ‘opium of the masses’. For the Leftist to do so, it is no less than a major intellectual shift."</span>
This is not a matter of many Islams, it is a matter of essential - without it you have no Islam. Whatever...lol
:-D
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely r.s., now what I am about to say does not apply in all cases, but applications like Atzmon is dealing with in regard to the left in some instances, is just pure hasbara. It leads to not being able to support any Palestinian liberation in a meaningful way, because all you do is constantly complain about your "higher" way.
ReplyDeleteUnless of course, someone can point out a way of Islam that does not have a body and soul, is not a way of life and makes hard and fast distinctions between the spiritual and civil. lol
ReplyDeleteOr how about this - imagine if you will, no one supporting the people of South Africa because the ANC believed in violence. Now, apply this same sceanrio to the present situation of the Palestinians - how does it magically change in their instance, yet was no problem when joining forces against Apartheid?
ReplyDeleteGood question.
ReplyDelete<span style="">There is hardly anyone who is more popular with the Palestinian public than Marwan Barghouti. In this, too, he resembles Mandela while in prison. </span>
ReplyDeleteThe only answer you can come up with is that we are familiar with the oppression of the Black population in the states, therefore, it was easier for us to identify in another country. However, because we were able to recognize it, and did something about it, you would think that we would be able to recognize it again even with another racial makeup.
ReplyDeleteWe have worked overtime here to mis-identify - mis-lead about what is taking place in Palestine, in all forms of media. They tried to mask the real issue of Apartheid in South Africa during the Reagan era, but could not pull the wool over our eyes - we had seen it here before. Not so with this, along with playing the old familiar tune of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, mixed with spurious religious conclusions - coming up with the current anesthetic concoction. We are just going to have to continue our assault with the truth.
Oh sorry Molly, its just when you put a request to link something in the same paragraph with having to read it carefully before responding, it gives the impression that you do not have access to the link...lol
ReplyDeleteSo a Leftist is "bound to fail" unless he becomes spiritual. Well, I guess people like me and As'ad are bound to fail.
ReplyDeleteDon't you just love how Jews are suddenly experts on Islam? Atzmon, V, me. heehe
ReplyDeleteNo one said anyone is bound to fail, but when the accumulation of what you "do" after so many years, is just complain about how 'non-left" they are (or 'right" for that matter), and how "non-secular," to be frank it does no one any good. Atzmon did not ask anyone to "be spiritual," nor did I, however you have to work with what you have. If all you can muster is a snide remark about being spiritual after you "indepth" reading of what Atzmon wrote - well, what can i say. You apparent prejudices blind you.
ReplyDeleteNo one said anyone is bound to fail, but when the accumulation of what you "do" after so many years, is just complain about how 'non-left" they are (or 'right" for that matter), and how "non-secular," to be frank it does no one any good. Atzmon did not ask anyone to "be spiritual," nor did I, however you have to work with what you have. If all you can muster is a snide remark about being spiritual after the "indepth reading" of what Atzmon wrote - well, what can i say. Apparent prejudices (or constanrt criticisms disguised as constructive) blind you, and whereas they might not be the major reason for failure they contribute.
ReplyDeleteLook I am not all crazy about the Left, nor am I all crazy about the Islamists, and I have been labeled before as a Leftist by some and by others as an Islamist. If I were to label myself it would proably be as a secular Islamist with Leftist leanings, LOL!!!!..
ReplyDeleteI am willing to work with both Leftists and Islamists if they are willing to work with me...And I agree that many Leftitsts tend to spend too much of their time complaining and pointing out other people's faults rather than being a successful example to follow...I have found that too many of the Leftists are anti-religious people and that is one of their shortcomings...The same goes for the Islamists, too many are anti-Leftists and that is one of their short comings...
Molly you do not have to be spiritual, but you should at least try and understand those who are spiritual and how much strength spiritual people tend to have ....
Flying out tomorrow....Wish me luck. I would ask you to pray for me, but how many of you actually do?????
Good Luck, Marion
ReplyDeleteGood Luck, Marion. Best wishes for the future.
ReplyDeleteI'll pray for you.
ReplyDeleteThe ANC renounced violence around 1991. The ANC wanted civil rights and a one person one vote free plural democracy.
ReplyDeleteDo Palestinians also favor reunification + civil rights + one person one vote free democracy? Is this what Hamas favors?
People
ReplyDeleteAs you have noticed, a post has been removed...I have a VERY good reason for that. Also, you should know that the blog has been attacked and my computer went berzerk for 12 hours, but everything is fine now...Will be with you soon.
Good luck marion.....I'll be making an atheist's prayer for you. Don't ask me how, I don't know yet but I'll try to work it out.
There would have never been any change withgout the violence, in fact, there is no major change that has ever took place without violence - and that includes India asshole.
ReplyDeleteSecond, the gist of the discussion is not what the ANC did, but what the African people faced - fucking Apartheid Anand, you consummat ass. What do the Palestinians face - a system WORSE THAN APARTHEID. Therefore, even though the ANC received civil rights, the people of South Africa still have the same people holding the same wealth - the Palestinians will not make the same mistake, but have total liberation, that even the leaders of the African anti-Apatheid movement admit and say the Palestinians should demand.
FEEL THE HATE IN TEL AVIV (SEQUEL)
ReplyDeleteFEEL THE HATE IN TEL AVIV, SEQUEL TO VIDEO CENSORED ON YOUTUBE - ENJOY
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/v/Ze5dbxPO8cU
THE CURRENT CONDITION IN SOUTH AFRICA (IT IS NOW WORSE THAN WHEN THIS WAS WRITTEN)
ReplyDeletehttp://uhurunews.com/story?resource_name=violence-in-south-africa
"We suffer more today than we did in the days of direct white power rule. Neocolonialism rests on the same structures of imperialism that were built by the slave trade." FROM ABOVE LINK
ReplyDeleteIndia won her freedom through Sathya Graha, nonviolence. So can Palestine and other nations.
ReplyDeleteSouth Africa suffers three thousand violent deaths a month (compared to 500 per month in Iraq for example.) South Africa has many challenges. I think one way they should address it is by becoming more free market, more pro business, and focusing heavily on technological innovation.
why did the last post go away? I am confused.
ReplyDeleteQuote your scrubbed history somewhere else Anand, I had enough in my classrooms in regrad to the USA. don't need to add skewed "history" from India. Second, as usual, you do not know shit about SA - and your remedy is like saying "slit your throats," your sick person.
ReplyDeleteQuote your scrubbed history somewhere else Anand, I had enough in my classrooms in regard to the USA. don't need to add skewed "history" from India posted by imperial fodder like you. Second, as usual, you do not know shit about SA - and your remedy is like saying "slit your throats," your a sick person.
ReplyDeleteyou are always confused
ReplyDeleteGood luck Marion, remember that you can find kindred spirits wherever you go
ReplyDelete