Monday, August 3, 2009
My husband and I were discussing this review and the question came up: why are Muslim immigrants in Europe so much more militant than Muslim immigrants here? There is racism and hostility towards them in both places. My husband said that Europe has a much stronger welfare system and that many immigrants get support from that but that here, they tend to work (often owning small businesses) and therefore must assimilate into society to make in order to succeed. What does everyone think? I noticed that in the articles, the immigrants in Europe were called guests (even if second or third generation), whereas here, they are called Americans. We have so many other immigrants here, not predominantly Muslim, as in Europe. I think that has something to do with it also. Do we have a more benevolent view towards immigrants here? That they are nobly working hard towards the American dream and all that? Living in NYC, which is largely immigrants, I may not have the most accurate pulse of the nation's views. The US has always encouraged (or taught in schools) assimilation, perhaps that's part of it as well.
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Maybe this is because Europeans are especially racist.
ReplyDeleteEvery group of people in every country on earth is racist, only to different degrees; and there are different types of racism. Some are very subtle.
To my mind, the most welcoming countries in the world to immigrants and minorities are America, Canada, Australia (maybe New Zealand), Hong Kong, Singapore, India, and Malaysia. These are all very diverse countries with many traders; and where business is a respected profession.
In the Arab world the least racist place might be Dubai. The large economic boom towns of Latin Ameica might be the least racist places there.
How welcoming are Arabs to large numbers of non Arab and nonmuslim immigrants? Do they welcome them as fellow citizens of their own country, even though they were born and brought up abroad?
I am very troubled by how Jewish immigrants to the Israeli portion of Palestine before 1948 are called "Settlers" by some; even the ones who came legally and bought the land they lived in. Is part of the disaster of 1948 because Palestinians didn't do a good job welcoming their immigrants?
Before the formation of Israel, to my knowledge, all Jewish immigrants to Palestine immigrated legally; and bought the land they lived on. The confiscation of property through "Custodian of Absentee Property Law" statute didn't start until after Israel became independent. Since 1961, a formal institution, the <span>Israel</span> <span>Land</span> <span>Administration</span> (or, "ILA") has existed to administer many of these "absentee" or confiscated Palestinian properties. In 1967, the "Eretz <span>Israel</span>" statutes pushed the policies into the annexed East Jeruslaem sections.
Again, the property confiscation didn't start until after Israeli independence. So why the anger at Jewish immigrants who wanted to become Palestinians before 1948?
The latest discussion about Hamas offering Israel a two state solution:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/08/hamas-pretends.php
A new "palestinian-lebanese growing up in north america" brought up the "one state solution" idea in the discussion there.
I think that your husband has some valid points, however, he misses one obvious point - the European nations do not have a rabid homeland security which says it can pick up anyone (however I think most understand the "profile") with no due process and without remedy calling them "indefinite detainees." Europe did not launch two murderous and totally unnecessary wars in the ME which has now claimed over a million innocent lives. Europe is not occupying these countries under the pretense of "liberation."
ReplyDeleteWhile I admit the other points have validity, this one point I mentioned above is missing. Do you think the abject fear, clandestine agents crawling through your community, laws gutting habeas corpus and human rights, "enhanced interrogation techniques" (torture), and two wars of choice ( etc., etc.) might have something to do with the difference?
I think that your husband has some valid points, however, he misses one obvious point - the European nations do not have a rabid homeland security which says it can pick up anyone (however I think most understand the "profile") with no due process and without remedy calling them "indefinite detainees." Europe did not launch two murderous and totally unnecessary wars in the ME which has now claimed over a million innocent lives. Europe is not occupying these countries under the pretense of "liberation."
ReplyDeleteWhile I admit the other points have validity, this one point I mentioned above is missing. Do you think the abject fear, clandestine agents crawling through your community, laws gutting habeas corpus and human rights, "enhanced interrogation techniques" (torture), and two wars of choice ( etc., etc.) might have something to do with the difference?
If you do not think this does not cause fear and silence I can produce many testimonies that refute that view. There are plenty of people that have been harrassed and continue to experience that dread. If you think this is a good thing than it makes me wonder about anyone who holds that view.
I think that your husband has some valid points, however, he misses one obvious point - the European nations do not have a rabid homeland security which says it can pick up anyone (however I think most understand the "profile") with no due process and without remedy calling them "indefinite detainees." Europe did not launch two murderous and totally unnecessary wars in the ME which has now claimed over a million innocent lives. Europe is not occupying these countries under the pretense of "liberation."
ReplyDeleteWhile I admit the other points have validity, this one point I mentioned above is missing. Do you think the abject fear caused by - clandestine agents crawling through your community, laws gutting habeas corpus and human rights, "enhanced interrogation techniques" (torture), and two wars of choice ( etc., etc.) might have something to do with the difference?
If you do not think this does not cause fear and silence I can produce many testimonies that refute that view. There are plenty of people that have been harrassed and continue to experience that dread. If you think this is a good thing than it makes me wonder about anyone who holds that view.
America has more freedom and civil liberties than European countries do. Only an idiot wouldn't know that. The fact that Europe has draconian laws and law enforcements makes them less safe, not more safe. I hope America (and other free countries such as Canada, Australia, India) don't follow Europe's negative example.
ReplyDelete"enhanced interrogation techniques" has happened very rarely. The Bush administration authorized the CIA (not any other branch of the US government) to use it. No case, to my knowledge, after 2004; even though Cheney was able to keep the possibility of torture open. Obama has now banned torture altogether. The primary way the US uses torture is "extraordinary rendition" of prisoners for torture in other countries.
What two murderous and totally unnecessary wars in the ME which has now claimed over a million innocent lives are you talking about.
Every fool except for the truly stupid knows that from 2002 until 2008 Europe had more troops in Afghansitan than the US (although a lot of other countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Thailand, and had many troops.)
I think V is talking about Palestine and Iraq. If so, neither America nor Europe is part of the Palestine war. Israel is. And Israel isn't America or Europe. Say it to yourself slowly a couple of times V. It helps with understanding thins.
On Iraq; the great Iraqi civil war of 1980 to 2008 has finally ended. The Iraqi people smashed the scum of the earth . . . the Takfiri and the Baa3this. The Takfiri and Baa3th are finished. Capoot! Done! The Iraqi Army has <span style="text-decoration: underline;">SMASHED</span> them. If they ever return from KSA, Jordan, Syria and other Sunni Arab countries, the Iraqi Army will <span style="text-decoration: underline;">smash</span> them some more. Go Iraq!
Before 2003, four to five million Iraqis fled the evil Satanic wanna be anti christ Saddam; including Iraqi Mojo's family. Now one to two million of them have come back. Inshallah, more return. Iraq will become a huge success; a great regional superpower. Inshallah, Iraq will send their brave lions--the heroes of the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Iraqi Army</span> and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Iraq Special Operations Forces</span>--to Afghanistan and other countries to smash the Takfiris. The Takfiris are going down! And there isn't anything that Abraham, V, or anyone else can do about it.
America has more freedom and civil liberties than European countries do. Only an idiot wouldn't know that. The fact that Europe has draconian laws and law enforcements makes them less safe, not more safe. I hope America (and other free countries such as Canada, Australia, India) don't follow Europe's negative example.
ReplyDelete"Enhanced interrogation techniques" has happened very rarely. The Bush administration authorized the CIA (not any other branch of the US government) to use it. Torture hasn't been authorized at all, to my knowledge, after 2004; even though Cheney was able to keep the possibility of torture open. {Cheney reminds me of V sometimes.} Obama has now banned torture altogether. The primary way the US uses torture is "extraordinary rendition" of prisoners for torture in other countries.
What two murderous and totally unnecessary wars in the ME which has now claimed over a million innocent lives are you talking about, V?
Every fool except for the truly stupid knows that from 2002 until 2008 Europe had more troops in Afghansitan than the US (although a lot of other countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Thailand, and had many troops.)
I think V is talking about Palestine and Iraq. If so, neither America nor Europe is part of the Palestine war. Israel is. And Israel isn't America or Europe. Say it to yourself slowly a couple of times V. It helps with understanding things.
On Iraq; the great Iraqi civil war of 1980 to 2008 has finally ended. The Iraqi people smashed the scum of the earth . . . the Takfiri and the Baa3this. The Takfiri and Baa3th are finished. Capoot! Done! The Iraqi Army has <span style="text-decoration: underline;">SMASHED</span> them. If they ever return from KSA, Jordan, Syria and other Sunni Arab countries, the Iraqi Army will <span style="text-decoration: underline;">smash</span> them some more. Go Iraq!
Before 2003, four to five million Iraqis fled the evil Satanic wanna be anti christ Saddam; including Iraqi Mojo's family. Now one to two million of them have come back. Inshallah, more return. Iraq will become a huge success; a great regional superpower. Inshallah, Iraq will send their brave lions--the heroes of the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Iraqi Army</span> and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Iraq Special Operations Forces</span>--to Afghanistan and other countries to smash the Takfiris. The Takfiris are going down! And there isn't anything that Abraham, V, or anyone else can do about it.
I would have to think about whether Homeland security produces less radicals or more.
ReplyDeleteEuropean countries have fewer freedoms and tougher law enforcement than the US. At least Europe excluding Britain, where complete Takfiri wackos are free to shout out their venom without censor.
ReplyDeleteAnand, the only thing I have to say to you is that you must be some cloistered fruitcake, I mean none of your "points" enter the realm of reality. Are you flemings incestuous cousin? LOL Keep up the good work, I do not get to laugh much these days :) In other words, you are so pathetic you do not deserve further word. Tap those heels together Dorothy -
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YKn53vWIHA
Personally, I think France could use a little more freedom :)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hc3J65QYQQ
America has more freedom and civil liberties than European countries do.
ReplyDelete---------------
Facts not vacuous stements please..
Yes Molly, it could be the water
ReplyDeleteAmerica has more freedom and civil liberties than European countries do.
ReplyDelete---------------
Facts not personal opinions please..
Come now tgia. We are only permitted to post "facts", no "personal opnions"? That is beyond absurd, and you know it.
ReplyDeleteTGIA, is this even a serious question? All Americans have the bill of rights and miranda rights. America has freedom of speach. Unlike in Britain and some other European countries, people cannot be so easily sued for slander in US courts. In America people have amazing freedom to sue others including the government for damages (way too much freedom in my opinion.) Americans would rather let a hundred guilty people go free than incarcerate an innocent person. Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is enforced much more in the US than in Europe.
ReplyDeleteFrance is the obvious example of much tougher law enforcement than the US. But similar things could be said for Germany, Spain, Italy and other countries.
Really TGIA, none of this is exactly a secret.
hehehe
ReplyDeleteAnyone can make any claim..There are times when showing facts to substantiate a claim like here, are necessary..If I say you're an asshole, this is a personal opinion but your wife or mum or friends might , rightly, disagree..
ReplyDeleteIf you say "It's a beautiful day today" I'd believe you and not ask you for facts ..But if you say, "Americans have more freedoms than Europeans", I have no obligation to believe because I need facts to substantiate your claims...BTW, you're twisted mmy words again by saying:
ReplyDelete"We are only permitted to post "facts", no "personal opnions"...Since I was asking for facts for that VERY claim!!
You deliberately twist people's intentions and that extremely disturbing!
If you say "It's a beautiful day today" I'd believe you and not ask you for facts ..But if you say, "Americans have more freedoms than Europeans", I have no obligation to believe because I need facts to substantiate your claims...BTW, you twisted my words (again) by saying:
ReplyDelete"We are ONLY permitted to post "facts", no "personal opnions"...Since I was asking for facts for that VERY claim!!
You have this habit of deliberately twisting people's intentions and that's extremely disturbing!
The professor's comments about Ajami's review are, as usual, hysterical. Everything but the nose on his face is anti- something or other. When the story about the Syrian Rabbis arrested in New Jersey came out, he was crying anti-semitism because the New York Times had used the word enclave to describe a a community of Syrian Jews. So I googled the Times and first I typed in WASP enclave, then Italian enclave, Irish enclave, Romanian enclave, Hungarian enclave, Tibetan enclave, and so on. Then I tried Christian enclave, Catholic enclave, Hindu enclave, Protestant enclave and lo and behold, all turned up at some point in the New York Times. I guess the New York Times can be said to be anti- everybody!
ReplyDeleteAnd I lovvvvve this closing line! The only thing misssing is nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, you don't belong to our club!
ReplyDeleteI mean, this man has not been invited in decades to the association of fellow Middle East experts, at the Middle East Studies Association.
And I can produce just as many testimonies of those who are not afraid and have never encountered problems. Even in this, you cannot admit that this country just might be doing a few things right. Oh no, the vast majority of Muslims are successful in America and are not as militant as in Europe because we scare the shit out of them with Homeland Security. You are pathetic.
ReplyDeleteAnd I can produce just as many testimonies of those who are not afraid and have never encountered problems. Even in this, you cannot admit that this country just might be doing a few things right. Oh no, the vast majority of Muslims are successful in America and are not as militant as in Europe because we scare the hell out of them with Homeland Security. You are pathetic.
ReplyDeleteanand
ReplyDeleteI plead to you in the the name of sanity .I beg you . Reserve yourself a bed in a mental asylum . You really shouldn't be on the loose. Eventually someone is going to do it.
Hell vza, the vast amount of Americans don't do anything because they are consumer dumb asses, and every revolutionary bone in their body has been removed in "educational" institutions. We have a deadening system, atomized by little selfish bubbles, seeking junk just to say we own it. In the meantime those elected laugh their asses off at your impotence and their masters smile, they do not listen to the people, and just serve an elite few. Brain dead zombies, line up here for your corporate image, and commence entertaining yourselves to death!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/deathinking/video/xwiej_peoplevoices_creation
Maybe it's a very bad, gauche and provocative delivery from As'ad but he's not entirely wrong...I too have a problem with experts on the ME. Often I just laugh!
ReplyDelete<span style="">Facts not personal opinions please..</span>
ReplyDelete--------
IMHO .Fleming and the other idiot( Go Iraq Go Obama etc..) , don't feel it necessary to back up any argument or opinion , their perception of the world is completely twisted .For Example , Look at the lengthy comment by anand upstairs .Skimming quickly through it there are at least 10 or more assertions full of wholes and yet not a single reliable/unreliable source of any kind to back up his crap.
Move a bit to Fleming and you get bombarded by " most this, or vast majority of that " and his constant use of "We" in reference to all Americans. a reflection of extreme sense of arrogance and mental bankruptcy.
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anand
ReplyDelete<span style="">European countries have fewer freedoms </span>
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You might be right , but dare I ask where did you get your information from ? or is it as usual hallucination ???
Sure Mr VAA :) in america you are entitled to your opinion and so that is OK.
ReplyDeleteI use "we" because there arent truly valid statistics on much of what we discuss. If you decide that you will not/cannot give anything I say credence, that is your call.
Know this: I spend most of my time with fellow "white people"/educated professionals. Much in the way you spend most of your time with people like yourself. Thus, I offer a perspective as I know it to exist in my community. It is what I experience on an ongoing basis, and I think a reasonably accurate statitistical sample of the larger population.
That said, I have never pretended to speak or represent all americans. No one can do that. I can just pass on what I see from my persepctive among "my people". And FYI, in my social circle, 99% have college degrees, at least, and work in professional, white collar jobs. A pretty normal group.
If this makes you mad and you choose to put derogatory labels (i.e., idiot, mental bankruptcy, arrogance) on me/us/etc., so be it. I just wouldnt expect to generate any new allies for your cause.
I can tell you that in my community the Israel/Palestine situation is rarely even briefly discussed. It just does not come up in conversation. It is not a topic that people care to discuss. No outrage, or feelings of any kind, are expressed. It is considered intractable, unresolvable and a waste of one's valuable time and energy. Im sure there are other communities where it comes up, like the editorial rooms at the NY Times. But I can tell you that in everyday life americans are not engaged.
When people (like on here) come out with "claims" that the Mossad was behind 9/11, or that Bush and OBL are in cahoots, it is dismissed as pure crazy talk. Then when such craziness is given credence by many in the Middle East, people here feel there is no point in trying to reach common ground.
"Stats" can be useful, but they are also easy to manipulate or even fabricate from nothing. People know BS when they hear it. Much of what comes out of the ME is dismissed because of past "claims" - remember Bagdhad Bob? People like that, and Zaqari, who recently went on an anti-Israeli/US/Obama/ rant, dont do your side any favors.
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ReplyDelete<span style="">Dismissing my perspective as invalid and as just the view of one "dumb" person may give you personal comfort but that is all. If the US felt as you do then Im quite sure our policies toward Israel would be much different. Therefore either its not important enough for people to care about what congress does, or our policy reflects the majority opinions. Either way, constantly talking about how stupid and/or criminal the US is does not endear us to your cause. It does the opposite. Its also a clear sign of how far away the US is from doing what you want. Americans do not find your being "very angry" a compelling case for changing our views.</span>
There are experts everywhere TGIA, like Lucy's advice stand in Charlie Brown. America knows everything too, it is a consumate expert and can prove it with a few words, read from the back of a matchbook cover.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing misssing is nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, you don't belong to our club!
ReplyDeleteROFLMAO!, vza
I can tell you have never been a part of a university faculty. This is par for the course in just about every discipline!
"Know this: I spend most of my time with fellow "white people"/educated professionals. " fleming
ReplyDeleteit shows
"People know BS when they hear it."
really fleming, than how can you be so ignorant? lol I do not say that you know BS, you know almost nothing, so how can you distinguish what is BS?
Good lord, isn't that rather silly?
ReplyDeleteIf Muslim immigrants are less radical in the US than in Europe, it most likely reflects the racial realities of both places. Even with the aftermath of 9/11 and the Obama election, black people are still the low man on the racial totem pole in the US. They have to deal with profiling, harrassment, etc. on a daily basis. A lot of non-European immigrants can pass for white in the US, and even if they can't, the stereotype of the hard working immigrant running a grocery store or driving a cab-while putting his kids through medical school-is still stronger than the stereotype of the crazy Arab with a bomb in his briefcase.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand, in Europe, immigrants from the Mideast and other former colonies are the low man on the racial totem pole. Thus the different levels of militancy.
I am tiring of your racist remarks against Europeans, Nandoo.
ReplyDelete<span style="">"Know this: I spend most of my time with fellow "white people"/educated professionals. " fleming </span>
ReplyDelete----------
now I know where the ignorance comes from.
Fleming
ReplyDelete<span style="">Know this: I spend most of my time with fellow "white people"/educated professionals.</span>
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Now I know where the ignorance comes from.
Fleming
ReplyDeleteI can tell you that in my community the Israel/Palestine situation is rarely even briefly discussed. It just does not come up in conversation. It is not a topic that people care to discuss.Fleming
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Why then do you feel obliged to discuss it here.
No outrage, or feelings of any kind, are expressed. Fleming
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Obviously it's not true , you never cease to express your venomous feeling here ,so why not there ( In your circle).
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take a walk through the slums in France
ReplyDeleteWell, VZA, I live in a very Muslim neighborhood and many of the businesses have large American flags on them. I think it's out of fear. Also, there used to be a large Pakistani neighborhood in Brooklyn. Many left after 9/11.
ReplyDeleteThe AA's comments about the NYtimes being anti-semitic <span style="font-style: italic;">were</span> ridiculous, VZA.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your point, Joe.
ReplyDeleteMuslim immigrants are the niggers of Europe. We already have niggers in the United States. And there is nothing to make someone militant as being treated like a nigger.
ReplyDeleteMolly I don't think they fly flags out of fear. Most Immigrants are more authentic than that statement implies. Immigrants tend to be more patriotic than natural born Americans.
ReplyDeleteJoe, in California, I don't think Blacks are treated as badly as you imply. Maybe they are in Chicago, New York or other parts of the US. Given how racist Europeans are, I would expect that Blacks are treated worse there. We Americans shouldn't pride ourselves on being less racist towards blacks and other immigrants as Europeans. Being less racist isn't good enough.
ReplyDeleteI guess you must have been sleeping during all that business about Rodney King, the L.A. riots, and all the routine police misconduct that was exposed during the Simpson trial. The L.A. police in particular have a reputation for being racist.
ReplyDeleteI sure is!
ReplyDeleteBut that is academia!
It surprised me too when I was "young" and "ignorant" of the ways of the hallowed halls of the ivory tower! 8-)
fleming dude!!! We know Palestine is not a subject of concern to your fellow Americans and we never claimed it was...You yourself are not all that interested and you do not care about investigating the matter any further..You never read our articles and never click on our links but you still feel comfortable enough to tell us and the Palestinians to accept defeat and move on...I conclude that your advice is based on very little information and that you're a pretentious prick!
ReplyDeleteYou didn't answer my point!! If you're not interested in a subject how can you possibly discuss it?? Answer please!
ReplyDeleteMaybe this is because Europeans are especially racist.
ReplyDelete-------------
???
Did you live in Europe??? What gives you this assurance about such assertions!?
Maybe this is because Europeans are especially racist.
ReplyDelete-------------
???
Did you live in Europe??? What gives you this assurance to make such claims
Maybe this is because Europeans are especially racist.
ReplyDelete-------------
How can you be so sure?
Perhaps some do. I don't disagree that there is some fear. I just don't think that is the norm.
ReplyDeletePerhaps some do. I don't disagree there is some fear. I just don't think it is the whole picture.
ReplyDeletePerhaps some do. I don't disagree there is some fear. I just don't think it is the whole picture. I thnk most live decent, successful lives and are never bothered by anyone.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Pakistanis are concerned, I read somewhere that after 9/11, once Immigration started enforcing the law, something like 15,000 illegal Pakistanis left the country on their own because they knew they were going to be deported.
If it's the case and you have no other opinion on the matter but saying it's the destruction of one or the other, why don't you wisely step aside and let people who have different alternative views state their opinions which they base on a daily effort to research , investigate and getting informed...You're done and your "religion" is made!!! OURS IS NOT!! Sheesh!
ReplyDeleteIf it's the case and you have no other opinion on the matter but saying it's the destruction of one or the other, why don't you wisely step aside and let people who have different alternative views state their opinions which they base on a daily effort to research , investigate and getting informed...You're done and your "religion" is made!!! Let us blabber if you don't mind...
ReplyDelete<span style="">I said america wasnt interested in discussing it. </span>
ReplyDelete-------
So what is your motive commenting on this blog ? By your own admission US not interested in discussing it . Notice how you're speaking on behalf of over 300 millions people when you make such a statement and the following :<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> "</span><span style=""><span style="text-decoration: underline;">But I can tell you that in everyday life americans are not engaged."</span> </span>.
From your perspective wouldn't make more sense for you to leave us alone and find an interest , hunting maybe .
:-D That's funny. We don't have a whole lot of that at the elementary level, thank goodness....or perhaps there is more than I am aware of and I am just clueless!
ReplyDeleteI am sure you have heard of the genre known as the academic novel. I have not read this,but have been told it a very funny, satirical take on the goings on in academia.
The Handmade of Desire by John l'Heureux
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/96/961021lheureux.html
:-D That's funny. We don't have too much of that at the elementary level, thank goodness....or perhaps there is more than I am aware of and I am just clueless!
ReplyDeleteI am sure you have heard of the genre known as the academic novel. I have not read this, but have been told it is a very funny, satirical take on the goings on in academia.
The Handmade of Desire by John l'Heureux
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/96/961021lheureux.html
I'll take a look at it, thanks.
ReplyDeleteThe resasons it happens at the university level is that the egos are much more bloated. ...and with some justification: basically you are judged on how much you publish and not just in any journal, but in peer-reviewed journals. Furthermore, when you go for promotion and tenure, there is a point system wherein not all publications are equal. The goal of all aspiring academics is to be published in the more "prestigious" or "top" academic journals. So everyone is constantly looking over everyone else's shoulder to see what kind of journal so-and-so is getting published in.
Comments of the "you don't belong in our club" type are so frequent, it ain't funny.
Keep saying that Europeans are more racist than Americans, Pangloss, eventually you'll find someone who believes you. "The Big Lie" was a favourite tactic of the nazis.
ReplyDelete