Wednesday, November 18, 2009

Plus ca change..

"Treat all men alike. Give them the same laws. Give them all an even chance to live and grow. All men were made by the same Great Spirit Chief. They are all brothers. The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it. You might as well expect all rivers to run backward as that any man who was born a free man should be contented penned up and denied liberty to go where he pleases. If you tie a horse to a stake, do you expect he will grow fat? If you pen an Indian up on a small spot of earth and compel him to stay there, he will not be contented nor will he grow and prosper. I have asked some of the Great White Chiefs where they get their authority to say to the Indian that he shall stay in one place, while he sees white men going where they please. They cannot tell me.
I only ask of the Government to be treated as all other men are treated. If I cannot go to my own home, let me have a home in a country where my people will not die so fast. I would like to go to Bitter Root Valley. There my people would be happy; where they are now they are dying. Three have died since I left my camp to come to Washington."

Chief Joseph upon a trip to Washington–1876

10 comments:

  1. A commenter posted it on Mondoweiss and evoked similarities between the two "settlements" of The US and Palestinie..

    ReplyDelete
  2. Let's hope that the similarities don't lead to a shared fate.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hmmm, interesting post. The latest in my discussion with

    "Anand,
    Personally , I find that our premises are different. You seem (and correct me if you are wrong) to base your arguments on what is 'right' and 'fair'.
    The problem with this starting point that it immediately leads to a dead end. Of course the Arabs think that it's immoral for the Jews to occupy Palestine, from their point of view it's 'right' for the Palestinians to be in complete control of the entire area , after all "they were there first " . From the Israeli point of view (and most Israelis these days were born in Israel) , it is 'right' for them to live in Israel in safety and not 'fair' for them to risk their lives by bringing in a million of Palestinians whose swear by a religious faith whose heads often call for the slaughter of Jews.
    Looking from the outside , you can decide on what you may see as 'more fair', or 'more right' , but it will need help at all in bringing in a solution (something which you have an interest in).

    Here are my answers , Nobody might differ:

    Aren't these policies immoral and inconsistent with Israel's values? Isn't infringing on the property rights of others wrong?



    In short - yes
    The government is constantly bowing to the settlers and the religious right. It started a long time ago. However you could say that the whole existence of Israel isn't moral at all. Just like non-Natives (or whatever you call them these days) should not live in America/ Canada and return it to the Cherokees

    In addition to this, many Palestinians fled Israel proper in 1948 because of the war. Don't these Palestinians deserve the right to return to their country, Israel?

    Maybe they do. The question is :is it safe for Israel to bring them in. Do you think it's moral for Israel's leader to bring in a million or so people who are swearing on a daily basis to kill all the Jews?


    Doesn't Israel belong to its historic Palestinian residents in addition to the Israelis?



    Not sure how to answer this. How do you define which country belongs to whom?
    "

    One theme I am noticing among Israelis is "Do you think it's moral for Israel's leader to bring in a million or so people who are swearing on a daily basis to kill all the Jews?"

    Why are Israelis so paranoid? Why do they believe that a million or so Palestinians who want to move to Israel proper (right of return) are "swearing on a daily basis to kill all Jews"?

    ReplyDelete
  4. https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=32302271&postID=5242970737852876969

    ReplyDelete
  5. <span>Why are Israelis so paranoid?</span>
    --------------------
    Paranoia is a mental disorder and you don't want to go there since it's a matter for phychiatrists and psycho therapists..
    Also, being or pretending to be, paranoid works wonder if you're about to steal someone's belongings. You can always say but he wants to kill me!

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anan 
    What this person is telling you reflects the Israeli mind plain and simple...There's a moral equivalency between what's "fair or right" ( Palestinian claim) and the need for safety and security( The Israeli claim)...From a colonist/settler and a land thief's point of view it's very understable..

    ReplyDelete
  7. <span><span>Another thing anand  
    Don't mistake my refusal to engage them respectfully and rationally for some "inability" to do so as you might think.. There's a difference here..I will not engage a supremacist retard who has no basic understanding of the concept of diversity on ANY(sic) level, with substantial arguments because my belief is that it's fruitless and unproductive..I don't believe dialogue is always the way to go. Not with a dead hamster for example.
    </span></span>

    ReplyDelete
  8. <span><span><span>..I don't believe dialogue is always the way to go. Not with a dead hamster for example.</span></span></span>

    :-D

    ReplyDelete
  9. anan has been having a klms of dialogue with someone who believes in monoethnic society out of the belief some people, roughly and sketchily, are superior to others. Germany Japan and Singapor are his ideals! And guess what?!! He wants me to go and argue with them respectfully and rationally! What else? A capuccino with a jambon/beurre perhaps!!

    ReplyDelete
  10. <span>He wants me to go and argue with them respectfully and rationally! What else? A capuccino with a jambon/beurre perhaps!!</span>

    :-D I have to admit, that is a bizarre request!

    ReplyDelete