There's a question we Israelis won't ask ourselves about the Palestinians, especially not about Gaza. The question is taboo. Not only won't anyone ask it out loud, but very, very few people will dare ask it in the privacy of their own minds....
....The question we have to ask ourselves is this: If anybody treated us like we're treating the people in Gaza, what would we do?
We don't want to go there, do we? And because we don't, we make it our business not to see, hear or think about how, indeed, we are treating the people in Gaza.
All these shocked dignitaries, all these reports, these details, these numbers - thousands of destroyed this and tens of thousands of destroyed that. Rubble, sewage, malnutrition, crying babies, humanitarian crises - who can keep up? Who cares? They did it to themselves. Where to for lunch?
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And don't forget to have a look at the comments posted from a parallel Universe! The 'Black is white' crowd:
"Israel greatly improved the lives of Arabs in Gaza & West Bank from 1967 on"
<span>Fair enough. Yes, they would have hit back, too. They're not pacifists, either, to say the least. In fact, their elected leaders are fanatical, murderous Jew-haters sworn toIsrael 's destruction. That's extremely important to remember, and we do. But what we don't want to remember, what we make 100 percent sure to forget, is that we do all sorts of hateful things to Gaza that they don't do to us, and that this is the way it's been since 1967.</span>
ReplyDelete<span><span><span><span>they would have hit back, too. They're not pacifists, either, to say the least. In fact, their elected leaders are fanatical, murderous Jew-haters sworn toIsrael 's destruction</span></span>
ReplyDelete------------------</span>
<span>I read that one but do you personally agree?</span>
<span>
Personally, I find this a despicable line. Jew-haters?! Now that's quick and easy. To equate them with anti-Semites is the product of a pathological Israeli line of thought! Seeing anti-Semitism everywhere. How do you expect the Palestinians to feel when they see the Israelis and the Zionists for what they first are, Jews, those Euro/American colons who showed up one day to forcibly take their lands, dispossess them and expel them. What do you expect them to do? To sit down and ponder the differences between a Zionist Jew and a non Zionist Jew? Why should they be asked to do this when the Israelis are untied in dispossessing them and who to this day refuse to pronounce the word Palestinian and insist on the word Arab to further strip them from their most evident identity. They're no more Jew-haters than I am..The difference is that I bother (and care)to see and articulate the difference and that they don't. They have more urgent issues to solve than finessing about the real identity of the thieves responsible for their misery.</span>
If they're anti-Semites, then I absolutely AM!</span>
How could the Palestinians object to their dispossession and fight over it in a non "Jew-hater" and a non "anti Semitic" way?!! How could this be achieved, concretely on the ground??
ReplyDeleteThere's more hatred towards the Arabs and more racism in the Israeli hearts than you'll ever find in an Arab heart despite the fact that the later had and still have more reasons to harbor such feelings that the former by far..
ReplyDeleteDo notr bother yourself TGIA, this is what vza picks up on every time...seriously
ReplyDelete<span><span>"In fact, their elected leaders are fanatical, murderous Jew-haters sworn toIsrael 's destruction."</span></span>
ReplyDeleteHe refers to their elected leaders not all Palestinians, Tgia.I did not take it as indicting all the Palestinian people as Jew haters.
Also, you must be naive if you do not know that many of the leaders and the religous nuts quite clearly have stirred up hatred against JEWS. Have you watched some of the videos of the Palestinian preachers, too? They quite clearly say JEW when they denounce and spew their hate.
The professor has always made a stand about this and he seems to think it can be done. I have always admired him for that. He always cautions those who take up the Palestinian cause that there is no room for that kind of hatred and he calls it out when he sees it, too!
ReplyDeleteDo you see what I mean TGIA? Now she is going to try to embellish it, and never asking why some might be this way, no other development, it is not worth the time
ReplyDelete<span>I know why ordinary people might feel that way, but I give no understanding to the religious leaders on both sides who stir up this kind of hatred. You must also understand why some Jews might feel the hatred, too. Were all the innocent Jews who were murdered in Arab countries during the pogroms of 1941-1947 all proven to be Zionists? Why were they punished for what the Zionists in Palestine did?
ReplyDeleteAs Tgia often says, its not all black and white is it?</span>
NO excuse for that kind of hatred should be "understood" or accepted on either side.
<span>All I can say is that you should read The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe. It's a must. It's impossible to understand the conflict without reading such material that you won't find, far from it, in Wikipedia. This has been an extreme one-sided aggression of monumental proportions and there is no possible justification for anyone to say oh but the two sides had their rights and wrongs..As that British historian9I forgot his name) who wrote in regards to this conflict (I quote from memory) "there has never been such a onflict in history where one side was as totally wrong as the other was totally in his right"..
ReplyDeleteMy position and my understanding.</span>
<span><span>All I can say is that you should read The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe. It's a must. It's impossible to understand the conflict without reading such material that you won't find, far from it, in Wikipedia. This has been an extreme one-sided aggression of monumental proportions and there is no possible justification for anyone to say oh but the two sides had their rights and wrongs..As that British historian (I forgot his name) who wrote in regards to this conflict (I quote from memory) "there has never been a similar onflict in history where one side was as totally wrong as the other was totally in his right"..
ReplyDelete</span></span>
Sure, if you are speaking simply of the Zionists and the Palestinians, you are right. That does not excuse the actions of Arabs in other countries who took out their anger by murdering Jews (and confiscating billions of dollars worth of property,) who had nothing to do with the establishment of Israel. You seem to be saying that all of that can be excused or understood because of this great crime of Israel???
ReplyDeleteListen vza, you have a very big mouth with very little knowledge. Now unless you want to limp away again I recommend you find out what happened in those countries (except for maybe one or two, which had extremely small populations), I do not have time to educate you, it is a waste of time. However, you're post is par for the course, you are never far away from supporting horrendous activity and will probably never stop being a hegemony hag.
ReplyDeleteShameful , v. You do not have to lie to advocate for the Palestinian cause. One or two? Unbelievable.
ReplyDelete<span><span><span><span><span><span><span>vza</span></span></span>
ReplyDeleteIt's not about excuses, it's about motives.
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What you're doing here is looking at the events in isolation one from the other knowning well that they're related in a cause/effect sequence. You're isolating the repercussion/ reverberation from the impact/conflagration where the point or the center is what took place in Palestine and NOT hatred for the Jews(anti Semitism) in the Arab world. If Zionism produced such a feeling, hatred, resentment, whatever in the Arab world, wasn't it PROVOKED when those Zionist who showed one sinister day in the "holy" land were perceived as what primarily are, in fact simply jews? How could there be blame for the second without considering the first? ! A crime no matter how horrible it may be is should always viewed in the light of it's motives. It's not about excuses as much as it is about understanding. This is how justice works,. This is how a judicial system work. Saying that there's no excuse for a crime is summary justice, a mockery of justice, kangaroo courts.
My question is: have their been attacks on Jews or what you called pogroms, before ? Isn't it ironic that you point to the the 1941-1947 period when the Zionist project was implemented in Palestine and was taking full force then not as much, in its repercussions, either before or after?
My last point:
Have the the US behaved any differently in the wake of the war declared on Nazi Germany when thousands of Americans of German and Japanese backgrounds were rounded up and put in concentration camps? Were they responsible for the crimes committed in their country of origin by people they have no relation to by any means? No they were not but what occured there should be viewed in relation to the primordial event which is the actions of the nazis..Not looking for excuses, just trying to understand the motives. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
I am not going into detail, but there were Zionist contingencies sent out all over these countries to stir unrest, reek havok and caused destruction and even death to provoke exodus and expulsion from these lands. When I stated two areas with small populations, like Yemen and Libya where there were indeed atrocities. Vza does not deserve further explanation, because if I am not mistaken I have dealt with her before on this same subject, and others in minute detail.
ReplyDeleteThis is just another episode in the vza saga who not only ignores contingencies of activity like what TGIA mentioned, but bold ignorance and no desire to examine closely these events, nothing is constant but prejudice. There was nothing "noble" in the establishment of Israel at the expense of the Palestinians who did nothing to deserve this horrific treatment. There is nothing valid in colonial exercises, and there is nothing legitimate in the ongoing occupation. All of this regardless of what may have occured in other countries - no excuses, and no justification.
<span><span><span><span><span>It's not about excuses, it's about motives.
ReplyDelete<span><span><span>
What you're doing here is looking at the events in isolation one from the other knowning well that they're related in a cause/effect sequence. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
I am not isolating it at all. Let's go back to our original point of contention. You protested Derfner's line about Jew hatred in Palestinian leadership. I was simply explaining that it does exist and existed in the wider Arab world in the period after World War II and continues today. So, if you want to discuss motives, then one could also understand how some Jews might be filled with hatred for Arabs at this point, since many of them were innocents, not Zionists, and had nothing to do with the establishment of Israel. Something like 800,000 were displaced and yes, there were Zionist actions (some despicable) in getting them to leave for Israel, but that cannot account for all or even most of them.
But I am heartened to see such understanding of motivation mentioned with regard to U.S. actions! My goodness, what a novelty! But here is the difference. You will find very few Americans who will agree today that the internment of the Japanese Americans was understandable and we certainly do not deny it happened.
I do understand your point, Tgia and I am not minimizing the effect of the expulsion of the Palestinians and the continuing Occupation, in creating the hatred. I just think that it is important to acknowledge that the Jew hatred does exist among certain segments of the leadership and population and reject it as a part of your resistance. How can you argue with that?
<span>Yemen and Libya where there were indeed atrocities.</span>
ReplyDeleteAnd that's it, right? SIGH. :'(
<span>Keep sighing vza, it is not answer as usual. First of all you have no idea of the lengths Zionists went to so that the Jews in these countries were marked. Also most of the movement had nothing at all to do with "presecutions," but simply what they thought was a better deal. Little did the ME Jews understand that there was a miserable second class citizenship waiting for them in Israel - in some ways worse than their other countries of origin. So, as usual vza, you do not know shit, and the ME Jews were primarily used for demographic purposes - the roost is ruled by Euro/American Jews to this day while the mE Jews are treated like dirt.
ReplyDeleteA recommendation for you vza is to do some reading (I have read aprox. 40% of this recommended bibliography), and consider the fact that we are not talking apples and oranges here with the Nakba and the exodus of Jews from ME countries. However, this is how you present it, even with your weak denials - which has always been your mode of operation, to use arguments that are used for the specific purpose of vilification of ME countries, as an excuse for the theft of Palestinian land - and than deny that this is what you use it for, making you totally disengenuous. </span>
Last, look at the context you use this argument as an example. We have a statement from Derfner that the leadership of the Palestinians hates Israel and wants it totally destroyed, but you are not satisfied with that, you try to imply that destruction of Israel is the goal of all ME Arab (and otherwise) people. You purposefully try to expand what was a limited statement, and display a clear prejudicial animus in the process. In other words vza, you are full of shit, and you might fool others here, but not me.
<span>http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story2127.html#The%20Case%20of%20Iraq</span>