In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, Hamas’ leader in exile Khaled Meshaal announced unambiguously the group’s recognition of Israel along the 1967 borders of international consensus, and promises not to impede negotiations for a final settlement.
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Israel isn't going to like this a single bit! They thrive and prosper propagating the idea that Hamas wants to kill all the Jews!!
I receive the WSJ and had already seen this article (7/31/09) Importantlly, the article you linked to "forgot" to mention this:
ReplyDelete"He also said his organization would accept and respect a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders as part of a broader peace agreement with Israel—provided Israeli negotiators accept the right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees and the establishment of a capital for the Palestinian state in East Jerusalem."
The "right of return" is an absolute non-starter. Its like saying I will give you a million dollars, provided I can kill your family. RofR is never going to happen, and Hamax knows it. They can essentially offer anything with the RofR condition and still "look strong" and never be concerned their offer will be accepted. Its a completely disingenous move on their part. More non-negotiating under the guise of negotiating.
You may begin the berating now... :)
I know it is difficult for you to understand fleming, because it is the American standard to get what you can for yourself and screw everyone else - even the whole country in the process, but this is not the conviction of the Palestinians. It is not in their makeup to leave the weak and the destitute behind and cover their ears and eyes as they are killed. They are not satisfied with the few getting everything and the rest left in commiseration. However, you can continue to act this way, because essentially only might makes right to you -
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVeRplP_zUE
tgia, is he going to change the charter too?
ReplyDeleteWhat an incredibly racist statement, v. To suggest that the Palestinian people are, inherently, "better people" than americans is offensive. Claming that one group of people is, naturally, more humane, more "fair" or "more just" than another is outright racism.
ReplyDeleteIf I said that asian americans were naturally "smarter" than black americans, you would express great outrage at such a racist statement. But yet you find it perfectly acceptable to demean the character of the american people and label them as inherently inferior to Palestinians! Why is that?
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; text-align: justify; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana; mso-ansi-language: EN;">They insisted on the right of return but agreed that it must be implemented in a way that takes into account Israel’s demographic concerns. </span>
ReplyDelete<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; text-align: justify; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none;"><span style=" color: #404040; font-family: Verdana; mso-ansi-language: EN;"> </span>
V, does this description apply to many thugs in Fatah and Hamas? Granted, there are many good people in Fatah an Hamas too.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I argued TGIA's point here:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/08/hamas-pretends.php
Hamas has to fight the propoganda that Hamas is an enemy of the Israeli people. Hamas has to repeatedly demonstrate that they seek freindship and brotherhood with the Israeli people (notice I said people and not government), and that this would be facilitated by Israeli policies that respect the freedom of the Palestinian people.
Many Israelis really seem to believe that Hamas wants to drive the Jews out of Palestine (Israel proper and the West Bank.) This paranoia needs to be addressed.
very impressive r.s. I hope the reasonable people in Hamas are able to keep the crazy faction within Hamas at bay.
ReplyDeleteR.S, please provide evidence of what you claim. Also, exactly how could that be done without greatly restricting who could "return" and/or restricting their rights, either of which Hamas would find unacceptable. Sounds like more non-negotiating masquerading as negotiating.
ReplyDeleteIt may apply to the thugs Anand, but it certainly doe not apply to you
ReplyDeleteDid the articles of confederation change in the United States Abu? Or, do we still have an imperfect union? Documents are fluid, especially those of state - look at Israel's, the borders keep changing. Apparently you have little understanding in regard to matters of state, it is probably not best to comment condemning a body when you have such a poor grasp of fluidity.
ReplyDeleteIs the Irgun Charter still in vogue? How about Likud? What about the stupid charter of Avigdor Lieberman and the inflammatory charter of Yisrael Beiteinu? Who is murdering whom?
fleming, it's just not worth it.
ReplyDeleteWanted to point the rest of you to note this superb article by Justin Raimondo over at antiwar, about our "dear friend and ally" Israel and its dirty dealings against us.
Incidentally if you're not familiar with antiwar.com, it's a terrific source of anti-war and anti-imperial views, from a conservative perspective. They do outstanding work and Raimondo is particularly good on the subject of U.S.-Israel relations. (They're conservative but they're not Republicans...big diff these days, just like Democrats are not liberal.)
Anyway, enjoy:
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/08/04/the-patriotic-spy/
Here's one I missed earlier that's also outstanding:
ReplyDeleteI have longed warned that Israel’s ostensible commitment to traditional Jewish values of openness, democracy, and respect for the dignity of all persons could not long withstand the requirements of maintaining what is essentially a religious-racial caste system. Israel, a settler colony that exists on account of its ability to drive out the indigenous Palestinians and keep them out, is of necessity the Sparta of the Middle East (there is no Athens). Militarism, by its very nature, makes a mockery of democracy and is the mortal enemy of liberty. It was only a matter of time before this inner contradiction was resolved in favor of creatures like Lieberman, whose rise is a barometer of the ongoing corruption of Israeli society – an indicator of a collective madness...
...What we are witnessing in Israel today is the degeneration of a once liberal democracy into a militaristic theocracy, one armed with nuclear weapons – and quite conceivably willing to use them against those they consider less than fully human. And if that doesn’t scare us into cutting them off – financially, at the very least – then we ought to prepare ourselves for the consequences. Because it isn’t going to be pretty…
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/07/21/israel-and-the-nutbar-factor/
You may begin the berating now...
ReplyDelete--------------
Here's my berating..
No dialog with assholes!!
I could answer this in many different ways but let me ask you first..Is Netanyahu /Likud now in gov't going to change THEIR charter which clearly stipulates that the Palestinians cannot have and have no right to have a state and that the state of Israel includes the West Bank under whichever form it may take...?
ReplyDeleteAnswer this and then we can take from there..
I could answer this in many different ways but let me ask you first..Is Netanyahu /Likud now in gov't going to change THEIR charter which clearly stipulates that the Palestinians cannot have and have no right to have a state and that the state of Israel should include the West Bank under whichever form it may take...?
ReplyDeleteAnswer this and then we can take from there..
You may begin the berating now...
ReplyDelete--------------
Here's my berating..
No dialog with you fleming...
All the UN resolutions and international law stipulate a right of return for the Palestinians but obviously you don't agree with international law and it isn't a surprise...The team you cheer for WON after all..
ReplyDeleteWell, if they really want to get proficient at it fleming, they will have to study Israel's bullshit techniques. Especially the ones where they say they are in good faith negotiations and continue to steal property and build settlements. Some other good ones are while negotiating assassinating people, or bombing innocent civilians - those are always a good sign of "good faith" negotiations, aren't they?
ReplyDeleteI commend you for your persistense in talking to a wall, v...LOL.
ReplyDeleteI hope the reasonable people in Hamas are able to keep the crazy faction within Hamas at bay.
ReplyDelete------------
OH, HOW CUTE!!
Are the "reasonable people" in Israel able to keep their crazy factions, settlers and other Israeli thugs at bay???
WHY ALWAYS ASK THE PALESTINIANS TO DO WHAT YOU DON'T ASK THE ISRAELIS?
I hope the reasonable people in Hamas are able to keep the crazy faction within Hamas at bay.
ReplyDelete------------
OH, HOW CUTE!!
Are the "reasonable people" in Israel able to keep their crazy factions, settlers and other Israeli thugs at bay???
WHY THE PALESTINIANS ARE ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO DO WHAT THE ISRAELIS AREN'T?
No solution without right of return..You can go and plough the ocean!
ReplyDeleteD.O
ReplyDeleteThanks for the article but you're wasting your time asking fleming to read anything..He just won't..
I hope the reasonable people in Hamas are able to keep the crazy faction within Hamas at bay.
ReplyDelete------------
OH, HOW CUTE!!
Are the "reasonable people" in Israel able to keep their crazy factions, settlers and other Israeli thugs at bay???
Why the Palestinians are always supposed to do what the Israelis aren't?
I am or am not cheering for anybody tgia. I dont have a natural affinity toward any side, no matter what you want to think.
ReplyDeleteWhat I offer is my crirtical view of the situation from the outside. More than anything I want the whole goddamned thing to stop. We (non jews, non arabs) are tired as hell of it and all the turmoil it causes in the world.
The point is, both sides are intractable. But Israel has the more powerful position, from both an economic and military perspective. Even you have to admit that. Its clear the Palestinians will never dislodge them on their own.
And so the right of return is a total non-starter. It would mean the end of Israel. Why would any country ever agree, without a fight, to its own destruction? Israel never will. No matter how many UN resolutions are passed, no matter how many people foolishly refuse stand in front of a running bulldozer. The only way Israel will ever permit its own destruction is when Arab mujadeen are running through TelAviv streets with AK 47s, or the entire country has just been nuked by some rogue enterprise. Short of those two, Israel will not acquiesce its very existence. This is not coming from some crazed Israeli, its just an obvious conclusion anyone with sense would reach. The same would be true if the positions of Israelis and Arabs were reversed. Any country in Israel's position, that holds the cards that it does, would never give up on its own.
We are tired of hearing about it. We are tired of the constant bickering. We are tired of the same basic goddamned news story night after night for the last twenty years and the next twenty: Arabs and Israelis killed each other again. Each side hates the other. Blah Blah Blah
How is it, that 65 years after Japanese planes snuck into Pearl Harbor and killed 3,000 americans, followed by a war in which hundreds more thousands died on both side, and we are now very close allies. Meanwhile, you guys have been at war for almost that entire time, and yet that conflict shows no sign of ending any time soon? How is that possible? How is that fair to the rest of the world, which has to put up with the endless bickering, the name calling, the villifying, the incessant belly-fucking-aching? The truth is, americans dont care anymore because they realize its an endless afair without any possible resiolution.
Really, what you are waging is a campaign to have the US do what the arab world cannot. That is, to require Israel to submit to your demands.
ReplyDeleteWe are not going to do that. Israel is our ally, and has been for years. Its somewhat ironic that all those who complain about US interference would be glad to see it if it meant the end of Israel.
At the end of the day we are mediators. You people are adults, you have to work out your own issues. It SEEMS to me that the objective you want is not within your grasp, and that the adult, realistic thing to do would be to realize this is the case, and to make the best of it. To me, that is the mature thing to do. We all make similar decisions in our lives on smaller scales, recognizing and moving on from defeats. It takes more courage to give up on a long sought after goal than to keep wishing away from an unreachabkle ideal.
At this point it doesnt matter who is right or wrong. Its irrelevant. Israel holds the cards. They are not going to submit to their own destruction. Either force them to submit, so we can move on, or accept the situation and make the best of it. Seems to me the latter is the best option, but what do I know. Im just a dumb gringo/american.
I hope the reasonable people in Hamas are able to keep the crazy faction within Hamas at bay.
ReplyDelete------------
By the same token anand, are the "reasonable people" in Israel able to keep their crazy factions, settlers and other Israeli thugs at bay???
Why the Palestinians are always supposed to do what the Israelis aren't?
TGIA, weren't you tought to hold yourself to a higher standard than you held others too? Isn't that part of the Palestinian ethos and value system?
ReplyDeleteIn any case, there are some very bad people in Hamas (and good people too.) Some people in Hamas organized terrorist attacks against civilians. I strongly oppose all terrorist attacks. This is one reason I am so pleased with Khaled Meshaal's progressive statement.
Fleming has a point that America cannot solve Palestine/Israel. Only Israelis, Palestinians and their neighbors can.
ReplyDeleteWewll thanks for making your points but still, I won't respond..I learnt my lesson..
ReplyDeleteWell thanks for making your points fleming but still, I won't respond..I learnt my lesson..
ReplyDeleteSure anand...You're never too slow to point out the bad in Hamas but condemning the occupation and the subjugation of an entire nation can wait until tomorrow!
ReplyDelete<span style="">At the end of the day we are mediators.. Fleming</span>
ReplyDeleteThe US Financing the occupation , supplying the military hardware even during the merciless slaughter on Gaza's civilians , voting on a yearly basis against the International Court of Justice's ruling at the UN. and on and on... But at the end of the day we are mediators
Let me tell you for the last time ( I hope) Japan was Japan and still is Japan apart from the US military bases ,there were no land theft. On the other hand Palestine constituted 100 % of the land is now shrinking by the day to a mere 8% , this Analogy of yours does not stand.
In Summary , if the you say Americans are tired of hearing about it then the US should pull out of this unbalanced equation , and the rest will be settled .
<span>At the end of the day we are mediators.. </span>
ReplyDelete----------
CUTE..
Gili gili ...gili gili, little cutie!
Japan lost Okinawa and several other islands as part of the surrender treaty. Germany was literally cut in half after WWII. The analogy is quite relevant.
ReplyDeleteI already told you VAA, we are not going to stop supporting our allies, Israel. We will not just walk away from our friends because those who largely loathe us (you!) want us to. Please. That is the last thing we would do.
So. you guys either go ahead and take Israel out on your own, or you had just better adjust to what is the reality. It doesnt matter how many UN resolutions are passed. The UN has no real power. Everone knows that.
"the rest will be settled". The standing belief that the US is all that stands between Israel's demise and Arab victory. Americans realize this, and also know its why many of you were supportive of the 9/11 attacks, and were so eager to see the US collapse during the recent finanical turmoil. It does not endear us to your cause.
We are not going to abandon our friend, Israel and let the hordes descend. It is not going to happen.
Your efforts to recruit americans to your side are highly ineffective. We realize that you consider yourselves of superior character and higher moral standing. We realize you think we are fat and stupid, and that you need to "educate" us poor dumb americans as to how the world works. Again, such an attitude does not endear us to your cause.
Proceed as you will.
Yes, of course the Likud will (if they haven't already), that's really not big deal, they don't really have a choice.
ReplyDeleteNow - How can you compare the Hamas charter with that? Seriously tiga, there is a pretty big difference between that and saying you need to kill all Jews, don't you think?
tgia, I know fleming won't read it and he's so desperately misinformed on the subject there is no way he'll catch up. That's why I've given up any form of dialogue with him. =-X
ReplyDeleteOh dear Dancing O. You are doing just what I said doesnt work. The whole, "you poor dumb americans just need proper "education" and you will see things as we do" attitude. Its such a huge turnoff.
ReplyDeleteMy points were that A) We will not abandon Israel B) Right or wrong doesnt matter, Israel has the power C) Either go ahead and destroy Israel on your own, or realize that its never going to happen and move on.
The world is tired of the incessant bickering, the endless accusations, the pretend negotiating, the childish efforts to demoninze one another, the whole thing is sickening!!! We are soooooo over it!!!